North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO) Discussion

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Pranav Krishna will be discussing North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO), the national competition for qualifying for the IOL (International Linguistics Olympiad). Problems require participants to decipher the structure of another language, and any central phenomena the problem writer wanted to highlight. While it is only tangentially related to mathematics, there have been those with notable accomplishments in math who have also done well in the NACLO and IOL.

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Facilitator: AoPS Staff

devenware 2020-12-10 19:30:26
Hello and welcome to the North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO) Discussion!
swimminggoofyseal 2020-12-10 19:30:48
Yay
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 19:30:48
hello
Awesome24 2020-12-10 19:30:48
Yay!
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 19:30:57
hi!
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 19:30:57
hi!!
User687861 2020-12-10 19:30:57
yay
Math_is_Cool101 2020-12-10 19:30:57
Yay!
nsb14 2020-12-10 19:30:57
Hi everyone!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:30:59
Before I introduce our guests, let me briefly explain how our online classroom works.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:06
This room is moderated, which means that all your questions and comments come to the moderators. We may share your comments with the whole room if we so choose.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:27
We will ask you lots of questions throughout the class. You should answer them as best you can by typing in the chat.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:38
Participate as much as you can! And feel free to shout out questions at any time.
Lmno 2020-12-10 19:31:41
Is this being recorded?
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:47
Yes, we will have a transcript available.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:53
Now let me introduce our guests for the evening.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:31:56
Tonight, Pranav Krishna (stronto) will be leading our discussion.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:32:00
Pranav is a current undergraduate at MIT, majoring in Computer Science and Linguistics, hoping to become a Computational Linguistics researcher. He was part of the IOL team in 2018 and 2019 In his free time, he generally enjoys playing the tuba, frisbee, and a lot of card games.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:32:08
(Say Hi Pranav!)
ILvMath 2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi
haokan 2020-12-10 19:32:21
hi!
swimminggoofyseal 2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi Pranaaav!!
tsvi14 2020-12-10 19:32:21
hi pranav!
rileywkong 2020-12-10 19:32:21
HI PRANAV
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi Pranav!!!!
A200251 2020-12-10 19:32:21
HI PRANAV!!
PSC 2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hello, Pranav!
eb18 2020-12-10 19:32:21
heyo pranav
stronto 2020-12-10 19:32:26
Hello!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:32:38
He will also be joined by Daniel Lovsted (naclocanada), Mihir Singhal (msinghal), Kevin Liang (kevliang), Andy Tockman (tckmn), Aleka Blackwell (Aleka_NACLO), and Adam Hesterberg (Kamior).
SciBoy2000 2020-12-10 19:32:53
Hi Daniel!
Huxley 2020-12-10 19:32:53
Hi Daniel!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:32:59
Daniel is a graduate student in philosophy currently based in Toronto, Canada. He first competed in NACLO in 2013, won a gold medal at the IOL in 2014, and since then has been a NACLO problem writer, editor, organizer, coach, and Canadian IOL team chaperone. Daniel's interests include looking at paintings, looking at photos of paintings, and spending time with his cats
Huxley 2020-12-10 19:33:06
Hi Mihir!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:33:09
Mihir is a current math major at MIT. He competed in the NACLO for seven years, and was on the IOL team in 2018. He enjoys puzzle hunts and card games in his free time. His favorite bird is the common hoopoe.
Math_is_Cool101 2020-12-10 19:33:18
Yo Kevin
Pandayue 2020-12-10 19:33:18
Hi Kevin!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:33:20
Kevin is a junior majoring in Linguistics and Computer Science at the University of Pennsylvania. He first took part in NACLO in 2017 and represented Team Canada at IOL in 2017 and 2018. Since then, he has been on the organizing and problem committees of NACLO. He loves sushi, maps, and just learning about different languages.
FCB10rr7 2020-12-10 19:33:23
Ello Andy!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:33:25
Andy is a current undergraduate studying math at MIT, minoring in computer science and linguistics. He competed in the IOL three times, in 2017-2019. He also enjoys programming, playing piano and viola, conlangs, board games, video games, logic puzzles, and puzzle hunts.
piphi 2020-12-10 19:33:35
ALEKA THE LEGEND!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:33:37
Aleka is a professor of Linguistics at Middle Tennessee State University. Aleka has been serving on the NACLO organizing committee since 2008 and currently serves as co-chair of NACLO. Aleka has authored problems for the competition since 2010, and she has coached and chaperoned the team members to the IOL since 2016.
Awesome24 2020-12-10 19:33:43
Hi Adam
rajsaha2007 2020-12-10 19:33:43
Hi Adam!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:33:46
Adam is the Assistant Director of Undergraduate Studies in CS at Harvard University. He competed in the NACLO in its first year, 2007, placed first in the IOL that year, and has been helping write/review problems, coach the US team, and grade the test ever since. He likes wordplay, cats, and graph theory
AimFire 2020-12-10 19:34:02
Cool!!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:34:22
That's a lot of people. That should be all the help you guys could need.
devenware 2020-12-10 19:34:51
So, tonight the general structure is:

1. They will introduce what NACLO is.

2. They will do some practice problems to show you what they are like

3. They will answer any questions you have.
RisBan 2020-12-10 19:35:03
This is awesome!
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:35:03
I'm excited to get started!
AimFire 2020-12-10 19:35:03
ok!
devenware 2020-12-10 19:35:19
So, I'll pass you off to Pranav now.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:35:32
Hello everyone!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:35:39
As Deven said, I'll be leading the discussion.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:35:49
First off, a bit of background about NACLO:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:36:24
NACLO is a contest in which high-school students solve linguistic problems. In solving these problems, students learn about the diversity and consistency of language, while exercising logic skills. No prior knowledge of linguistics or second languages is necessary.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:36:40
To learn more about this free annual competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:36:54
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:37:07
The top 10% of participants in the Open Round of NACLO are invited to the invitational round. The top performers in the invitational round are invited to represent the US and Canada at the International Linguistics Olympiad (IOL). The 2021 IOL will be in Latvia, July 19-23, 2021. For more information, go to https://www.ioling.org/.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:37:19
The IOL is one of 13 International Science Olympiads for secondary school students, and has been held annually since 2003. Each year, teams of young linguists from around the world gather and test their minds against the world’s toughest puzzles in language and linguistics.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:37:32
No prior knowledge of linguistics or languages is required: even the hardest problems require only your logical ability, patient work, and willingness to think around corners.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:37:53
To participate in NACLO, you must satisfy all of the following criteria:

- You have never been enrolled as a full-time college or university student.

- You must be less than 20 years old on the first day of the IOL (July 19, 2021).

- You are a citizen of the US or Canada or a student in a secondary school in the US or Canada.

- You are available to take the test at one of the times it's offered.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:38:08
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.

The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.

This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:38:42
But in order to really understand what NACLO is, it helps to showcase a few problems.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:39:03
So, let's jump into some problems!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:39:09
Is everyone excited?
CamilleL 2020-12-10 19:39:23
YEAH!!!
yofro 2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
bronzetruck2016 2020-12-10 19:39:25
YES!!
haokan 2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
SciBoy2000 2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
lydia_math 2020-12-10 19:39:25
yep
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 19:39:26
YEs!
QuinnieThePooh 2020-12-10 19:39:26
Yeah!
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 19:39:26
Heck yeah!
baobaoj 2020-12-10 19:39:26
yes!
liljellyfish 2020-12-10 19:39:36
totally
eye22 2020-12-10 19:39:36
yes!!
Math-Scholar 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yes
copyllamasheep 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yeah!
aguan3002 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Ye
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yeyaaa!
nsb14 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Oh yeah this is like the most exciting class yet!
melodiya99 2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yes!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:39:47
Here is our first problem:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:39:54
Apinayé belongs to the Ge language family of Brazil. Currently it is spoken by less than 800
people, and therefore is seriously endangered. The following are some sentences in Apinayé,
along with their English translations. You will see some letters here that do not occur in the
English or Portuguese writing systems. You do not need to know exactly how these letters are
pronounced in order to solve this problem:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:40:19
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto 2020-12-10 19:40:29
The end goal of this problem will be to translate sentences in Apinaye to English and from English to Apinaye.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:40:35
I know this looks pretty daunting, especially if this is your first time experiencing a NACLO puzzle.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:40:45
But I promise all of you that once this Math Jam is over, you'll think this is a piece of cake!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:40:56
First off, let's make sure we understand what we're given. What is this table telling us?
AOPqghj 2020-12-10 19:41:31
That sentence = that sentence
AIMI99 2020-12-10 19:41:31
It is translating Apinaye to English
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:41:31
the translations of various sentences from Apinaye to English
TomBradygoat 2020-12-10 19:41:31
haha!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:41:39
Right, this table contains the English translations of several Apinaye sentences. The end goal of this problem will be to translate some new sentences in Apinaye to English and vice versa.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:41:48
Of course, before we start translating new sentences, we'll need to understand the sentences we're already given better. Any ideas where to begin with that?
FCB10rr7 2020-12-10 19:42:19
Ape means works
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:42:19
Ape = works
stronto 2020-12-10 19:42:29
Good eye! It looks like 'Ape' appears in a lot of sentences.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:42:45
We can guess that this word means "works" because "works" appears in all the sentences that Ape appears in, and in the one sentence where Ape doesn't appear, neither does "works"!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:44:12
Some people guessed that "Ape" is "the".
stronto 2020-12-10 19:44:20
That's a good guess! "The" does appear in all the sentences that have Ape, but the first sentence has the word "the", but it doesn't have Ape in its translation.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:44:39
Okay, so now we have found that Ape is most probably "works". Are there any other observations, or other words that we can figure out with a similar strategy?
RisBan 2020-12-10 19:45:09
Look for common words
dulaman 2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi- monkey
ILvMath 2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi = monkey
rileywkong 2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi = monkey
Elephant123 2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi = monkey
mgher 2020-12-10 19:45:17
monkey = kokoi
AIMI99 2020-12-10 19:45:17
Can kokoi = monkey?
graciebelle1115 2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi means monkey
Bluepenguin1417 2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi = monkey
IRO529 2020-12-10 19:45:21
kokoi is monkey
Hexag0n 2020-12-10 19:45:21
kokoi is monkey
Alleosonia 2020-12-10 19:45:24
kokoi is monkey
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 19:45:25
kokoi = monkey
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 19:45:26
Kokoi is monkey
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi=monkey
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi = monkey
aj032806 2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi - monkey
SC1 2020-12-10 19:45:26
Kokoi = Monkey
eye22 2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi is monkey
TreeKangaroo 2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi=monkey
Allen31415 2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi -> monkey
Awesome24 2020-12-10 19:45:29
Kokoi is monkey
stronto 2020-12-10 19:45:41
Yup, kokoi is indeed monkey!
TomBradygoat 2020-12-10 19:45:54
chid is kra
Tuoni 2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra = child
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra means child
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra = child?
sdpandit 2020-12-10 19:46:04
"kra" is child
abiha1224 2020-12-10 19:46:04
kra = child
rileywkong 2020-12-10 19:46:04
kra = child
ggsgk90 2020-12-10 19:46:08
kra = child.
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 19:46:12
kra is child
Ayan_Mahajan 2020-12-10 19:46:12
kra = child
Kitsunekokoro 2020-12-10 19:46:14
Kra is child
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 19:46:15
kra = child
stronto 2020-12-10 19:46:16
Yeah, kra is child!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:46:39
You are getting this really fast!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:47:42
For those who are confused - these words all appear in multiple sentences, and there are English words that also are in those corresponding sentences but no where else. This makes us think that, for example, kra is child!
jbear911 2020-12-10 19:48:20
mi = man
awesomeguy856 2020-12-10 19:48:20
mï is man
CraneShadow 2020-12-10 19:48:20
mï = man
stronto 2020-12-10 19:48:31
Yup, mi is man!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:49:39
This is sort of the limit of this method. Before we continue, let's tabulate what we have so far:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:49:47
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto 2020-12-10 19:50:00
To proceed with the problem, we'll have to dig a bit deeper. For example, I see the word mεtš in two sentences - any guesses as to what that word means?
melodiya99 2020-12-10 19:50:07
mets = good or well?
mgher 2020-12-10 19:50:12
good/well
aopsuser008 2020-12-10 19:50:13
mεtš= good/well.
tealcreature 2020-12-10 19:50:13
good
Mathman04 2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
RaggedQuark2 2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
lasergazer 2020-12-10 19:50:13
good or well
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
WarriorKid 2020-12-10 19:50:19
mεtš=good, well
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:50:19
good/well
PSC 2020-12-10 19:50:19
good or well
eb18 2020-12-10 19:50:20
good/well
Probblem_Solver_Artist 2020-12-10 19:50:22
good or well
MYZK 2020-12-10 19:50:22
good or well
haokan 2020-12-10 19:50:23
good/well
Jackrabbit1453 2020-12-10 19:50:28
good / well?
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 19:50:28
good/well
navgup123 2020-12-10 19:50:28
good/well
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 19:50:28
good well
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 19:50:32
good or well--> a positive action
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 19:50:32
good/well
stronto 2020-12-10 19:50:37
mεtš job, you all!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:50:44
It means good or well. These words mean really similar things, so it's not surprising that they share the same translation in Apinaye.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:50:54
What are some next steps, or other strategies to consider?
navgup123 2020-12-10 19:51:31
the order of the words and how that affects the sentence
IRO529 2020-12-10 19:51:31
consider placement of mets to discern adjective vs adverb
OliverA 2020-12-10 19:51:41
look at sentence order, disregard the...
shnk 2020-12-10 19:51:41
discern placement of the words
Donut870 2020-12-10 19:51:43
find sentence structure
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 19:51:44
identify sentence structure
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 19:52:02
Look at where words with similar uses are placed.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:52:11
Wow, we're already getting ahead!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:52:20
Before this, let's start a bit simpler.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:52:24
A common strategy is also to look for what's left to translate. For example, let's look at the sentence "Kukrε kokoi". Which word in this sentence do we know the translation of?
mgher 2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi
baobaoj 2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi
navgup123 2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi means monkey
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 19:52:43
kokoi
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 19:52:43
kokoi
stronto 2020-12-10 19:52:47
And what is its translation?
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
PSC 2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
rzl2005 2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 19:52:59
monkey
stronto 2020-12-10 19:53:07
So now, we're left with the word Kukrε. What is this word most likely to mean?
monkeysrcool 2020-12-10 19:53:16
eats
sdpandit 2020-12-10 19:53:16
eats
masadca 2020-12-10 19:53:20
Eats
AliCaliK 2020-12-10 19:53:22
therefor Kukrε must mean eats
navgup123 2020-12-10 19:53:22
eats
Wusters 2020-12-10 19:53:22
eats
rajsaha2007 2020-12-10 19:53:25
eats, 3rd Singular
stronto 2020-12-10 19:53:34
That's right! We've already accounted for how "monkey" is represented in Apinaye, so we still need a word to represent the concept of eating.
tewa2 2020-12-10 19:53:37
eat(with conjugation)
stronto 2020-12-10 19:53:41
I'm sure some of you will be wondering - well, why can't it be "the"? For this question - it's complicated. But there should be some intuitive sense that accounting for more grounded things such as "eating" is much more important than trying to account for something as abstract as the word "the".
colourless_green_ideas 2020-12-10 19:53:46
eats
stronto 2020-12-10 19:53:59
If you decide to pursue this further and do practice problems between now and January, you'll be able to hone this sense in by being exposed to a variety of languages. But for now... trust me on this.
eb18 2020-12-10 19:54:18
its process of elimination, SOME word must be eats, so we assume its kukre
stronto 2020-12-10 19:54:28
Yup, exactly! Couldn't have said it better!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:54:34
Now, what other word can we figure out from this strategy?
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 19:54:51
rats is big
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 19:54:51
rats
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats = big
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 19:54:53
ratš = big!
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 19:54:53
ratš = big.
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats is big
ananyasharma 2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats
OliverA 2020-12-10 19:54:54
rats is big
devenware 2020-12-10 19:55:00
(I don't like big rats...)
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:10
Me neither
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:19
But yes, that is exactly right!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:23
Here's what we have so far:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:26
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:34
Before we move on to the translation portion of the problem, we have one last sentence to fully decipher: "Ape punui mï piŋetš", which means "The old man works badly". We can remember that Ape means works, and mï means man, but between punui and piŋetš, we need to figure out which one is "old" and which one is "badly".
stronto 2020-12-10 19:55:52
Any ideas on how to crack the last piece of the puzzle?
mgher 2020-12-10 19:56:11
analyze sentence structur
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 19:56:16
can we use sentence structure?
nova_says 2020-12-10 19:56:16
look at the sentence structure
organic27 2020-12-10 19:56:16
we can look at the word good
twotothetenthis1024 2020-12-10 19:56:18
order in sentence
pandapo 2020-12-10 19:56:20
word order
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 19:56:20
this is where sentence structure is helpful
sdpandit 2020-12-10 19:56:27
Probably need to look at sentence structure to figure this out.
beibeizhu 2020-12-10 19:56:35
Use the order in which the words appear?
stronto 2020-12-10 19:56:36
An important part of language is that it has structure. If we want to say something, we can't just choose a random order of words and say them! Try to think about where specific kinds of words were placed.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:56:47
Let's start a bit more specific - what is in common between all the first words of the Apinaye sentences?
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 19:57:00
Verb comes first.
Altair017 2020-12-10 19:57:03
Verb
tewa2 2020-12-10 19:57:03
verb
mgher 2020-12-10 19:57:03
verbs
bibear 2020-12-10 19:57:03
verb
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 19:57:05
they're all verbs
dulaman 2020-12-10 19:57:05
verbs
OliverA 2020-12-10 19:57:09
it's a verb
ges100 2020-12-10 19:57:09
verb
jbear911 2020-12-10 19:57:09
verbs
Apollonians 2020-12-10 19:57:14
They're all verbs.
fubar321 2020-12-10 19:57:14
All verbs
stronto 2020-12-10 19:57:16
Exactly! And if there are two words, a verb and a noun, the verb always comes first.
Pandayue 2020-12-10 19:57:24
LOOK AT SENTENCE STRUCTURE OF OTHER SENTENCES.
ananyasharma 2020-12-10 19:57:24
Verbs come first
stronto 2020-12-10 19:57:34
Now, suppose we get a little more complicated, and we add an Adjective. This is a word that describes a noun. Where would this go in Apinaye?
rltfxoltl 2020-12-10 19:57:53
after the noun
shnk 2020-12-10 19:57:53
after subject
AwesomeBrainiac 2020-12-10 19:57:56
After the noun
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 19:57:58
Right after the noun.
haokan 2020-12-10 19:57:58
adj goes after noun
Allen31415 2020-12-10 19:57:58
after noun
Bluepenguin1417 2020-12-10 19:57:58
last
rajsaha2007 2020-12-10 19:57:58
after noun
Tuoni 2020-12-10 19:57:58
After the noun
melodiya99 2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
nxw3783 2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
IRO529 2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
Huxley 2020-12-10 19:57:58
After the noun
Elephant123 2020-12-10 19:58:01
noun before adjective
andy3409 2020-12-10 19:58:02
after the noun
dulaman 2020-12-10 19:58:02
after noun
stronto 2020-12-10 19:58:06
Exactly! We can tell this is the case by examining sentences that have just a verb, noun, and adjective.
stronto 2020-12-10 19:58:12
Ape kokoi ratš. $\longrightarrow$ ‘The big monkey works.'

Ape mï mεtš. $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'
stronto 2020-12-10 19:58:22
Now, suppose I have an adverb that describes the verb instead of an adjective. Where would I put the adverb?
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 19:58:38
after the verb
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 19:58:38
after the verb
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 19:58:47
after the verb
ges100 2020-12-10 19:58:47
after the verb
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 19:58:53
after verb
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 19:58:53
right after the verb
Dorothy2008 2020-12-10 19:58:53
After verb
tuffm8 2020-12-10 19:58:53
after the verb!!
stronto 2020-12-10 19:58:56
Exactly! Apinaye puts it right after the verb, which for our purposes is the same as putting it between the verb and noun. We can actually compare the following two sentences:
stronto 2020-12-10 19:59:12
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'

Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ 'The child works well.'
stronto 2020-12-10 19:59:22
And see that the meaning of mεtš (which is good/well) can change depending on if it is in the adjective position or in the adverb position.
csalohcin 2020-12-10 19:59:45
Since Mets can be used as both as an adverb and an adjective we can look at its placement in order to determine the syntax. As we can see when used as an adverb it comes before the noun but when used as an adjective it comes after. Therefore punui is badly and piŋetš is old
Ayan_Mahajan 2020-12-10 19:59:45
verb, adverb, noun, adjective
organic27 2020-12-10 19:59:45
descriptive words follow after the object of description
stronto 2020-12-10 19:59:57
Good job you all!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:03
Good job you all!Now, back to our main question - how can we distinguish which of "punui" and "piŋetš" is "old" vs "badly"?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:19
Well, we can look at the positions of the two words. "punui" is right after the verb, so it must be the adverb "badly", while "piŋetš" is right after the noun, so it must be the adjective "old".
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:23
Here is everything that we have gathered:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:28
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 20:00:31
I got it!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:33
The order of sentences in Apinayé is Verb (Adverb) Noun (Adjective)
stronto 2020-12-10 20:00:43
That's great to hear!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:01:02
Now we can move on to translating those new sentences!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:01:14
A1) Translate the following into English:
Ape ratš mï mεtš.
Kukrε ratš kokoi punui.
Ape piŋetš mï.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:01:24
A2) Translate the following into Apinayé:
'The big child works a long time.'
'The old monkey eats a lot.'
stronto 2020-12-10 20:01:38
Let's start with the first sentence of A1, and take it word by word. First, what does Ape mean?
masadca 2020-12-10 20:02:01
Works
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:02:04
works
bibear 2020-12-10 20:02:07
works
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:02:10
works
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
Sapereaude22 2020-12-10 20:02:11
Works
ILvMath 2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
AliCaliK 2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
npierre22 2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
zasper 2020-12-10 20:02:11
Works
tealcreature 2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
stronto 2020-12-10 20:02:14
What does ratš mean?
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:02:25
big
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 20:02:27
big
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
Wusters 2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
aop2014 2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
rileywkong 2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
josh924 2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
AwesomeBrainiac 2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
stronto 2020-12-10 20:02:44
What does mï mean?
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
AliCaliK 2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
organic27 2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
LynnBee 2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
sdpandit 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
masadca 2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
eye22 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
mgher 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
AIMI99 2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
charming09j 2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
shark449 2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
colourless_green_ideas 2020-12-10 20:03:26
man
Dinoann 2020-12-10 20:03:30
man
stronto 2020-12-10 20:03:34
Finally, what does mεtš mean?
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:03:46
well
imanoobdude 2020-12-10 20:03:46
well/good
PSC 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
AliCaliK 2020-12-10 20:03:46
well/good
shark449 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
Cuber999 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
CraneShadow 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
organic27 2020-12-10 20:03:46
works
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
haokan 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
josh924 2020-12-10 20:03:46
Good/well
colourless_green_ideas 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
BeautifulMath 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
andy3409 2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
varshab 2020-12-10 20:03:56
good/well
twotothetenthis1024 2020-12-10 20:03:56
good/well
pandapo 2020-12-10 20:03:56
well/good
graciebelle1115 2020-12-10 20:03:56
good
stronto 2020-12-10 20:04:02
Putting it together, what do we get?
mr245 2020-12-10 20:04:13
man
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:04:13
the good man works bigly (haha bigly)
Jackrabbit1453 2020-12-10 20:04:23
the good man works a lot?
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:04:39
the good man works a lot
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 20:04:43
the good man works a lot.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:04:56
Exactly!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:05:00
A lot of students have been saying "The big man works well", which is close, but incorrect. I remember also making the same mistake when I was first trying out this puzzle (back when I was just starting on my linguistics olympiad journey). Does anyone know why it's incorrect?
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:05:26
adjectives come after nouns, adverbs after verbs
BeautifulMath 2020-12-10 20:05:35
Sentence structure?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:06:02
Correct! Here, ratš is an adverb (it comes after the verb), so it must describe the verb and mεtš is an adjective (it comes after the noun), so it must describe the noun.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:06:16
But now we're sort of stuck - how does "big" become an adverb? We can't just say "The good man works bigly" (I mean, you could, but with points taken off).
stronto 2020-12-10 20:06:29
Any ideas?
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:06:40
look at english sentences
stronto 2020-12-10 20:06:41
(Hint: Look at A2)
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 20:06:48
look at A2 for ideas
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 20:06:52
you look at A2
stronto 2020-12-10 20:07:03
Looks like some of you are using the secret technique of solving the test... with the test!
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 20:07:07
OH IT'S A LOT!!
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 20:07:07
Works a lot, i see
eye22 2020-12-10 20:07:19
a lot
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:07:23
"a lot"
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:07:23
"a lot"
shnk 2020-12-10 20:07:27
a lot
stronto 2020-12-10 20:07:29
Exactly, we can translate this as "a lot". Our sentence becomes "The good man works a lot."
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 20:07:33
it provided us the idea of "a lot"
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:07:41
A2 omg so interesting
imanoobdude 2020-12-10 20:07:49
omg thats so cool!
shark449 2020-12-10 20:07:50
LOL! I do that too if a test asks a question and it says it directly on the test!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:07:54
The phrase "a long time" works better with the adjective "old".
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:08:12
"a lot" appears in A2 which implies you are able to say "a lot" with what you have
stronto 2020-12-10 20:08:30
Yup!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:08:37
Moving on, what is the translation for sentence 2?
d_j24 2020-12-10 20:08:46
cool!!
charming09j 2020-12-10 20:08:50
cool
AIMI99 2020-12-10 20:09:04
cool
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:09:07
The bad monkey eats a lot
haokan 2020-12-10 20:09:08
The bad monkey eats a lot.
Mal0601 2020-12-10 20:09:15
the bad monkey eats a lot
jbear911 2020-12-10 20:09:15
the bad monkey eats a lot
rileywkong 2020-12-10 20:09:15
The bad monkey eats a lot
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:09:20
The bad monkey eats a lot
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:09:20
The bad monkey eats a lot
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 20:09:23
The bad monkey eats a lot
rajsaha2007 2020-12-10 20:09:23
The bad monkey eats a lot
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 20:09:25
the bad monkey eats a lot
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:09:25
The bad monkey eats a lot.
imanoobdude 2020-12-10 20:09:25
the bad monkey eats a lot
josh924 2020-12-10 20:09:30
oh, bad not old
stronto 2020-12-10 20:09:32
Exactly!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:09:39
And the third sentence?
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:10:00
the man works a long time
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works a long time
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:10:05
the man works for a long time
haokan 2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works a long time
Jackrabbit1453 2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works for a long time
Mathman04 2020-12-10 20:10:08
The man works a long time
mgher 2020-12-10 20:10:16
The man works a long time
AIMI99 2020-12-10 20:10:19
The man works for a long time
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:10:19
the man works for a long time
eye22 2020-12-10 20:10:19
the man works for a long time
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 20:10:20
the man works a long time
Wusters 2020-12-10 20:10:24
The man works a long time
stronto 2020-12-10 20:10:26
Some people are mixing up punui and pinets - remember, we found that punui means "bad" and pinets means "old"!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:10:48
"The man works a long time" is correct though!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:11:03
Great job, all of you!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:11:15
I think it's time to move to a different, harder problem.
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:11:47
Is it better to put "long" or "a long time" in situations like this?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:12:05
Because A2 had "a long time", it would be safer to translate it using this phrasing.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:12:12
But both should be accepted!
tealcreature 2020-12-10 20:12:24
a long time is an adverb
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 20:12:44
i'm really enjoying this thank you!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:12:55
No, thank you for coming!
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:12:58
How many points was this question worth?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:13:10
This appeared in 2008, and it was 10 points out of 100
eb18 2020-12-10 20:13:16
yes i am hyped cuz i almost solved it at first except i mixed up two words
stronto 2020-12-10 20:13:18
Nowadays, it would be a 5 point problem
Dinoann 2020-12-10 20:13:37
it's not as hard as it sounds
stronto 2020-12-10 20:13:50
eye22 2020-12-10 20:14:14
im so excited
stronto 2020-12-10 20:14:24
Yay, that's great to hear!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:14:32
Let's move on to the next problem!
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:14:41
YEEAAAHHHH!!!
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:14:41
so hyped for harder problems!
d_j24 2020-12-10 20:14:41
YES WE ARE HYPED
rileywkong 2020-12-10 20:14:41
i want harder problems!!
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 20:14:45
HYPE!!
Altair017 2020-12-10 20:14:46
Hype!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:14:49
HYPE!!!
tuffm8 2020-12-10 20:14:51
no we are TYPED
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:14:57
Ahhh heck yeah!
jingyihan 2020-12-10 20:14:57
PUZZLES!!
msinghal 2020-12-10 20:15:04
HYPE!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:15:14
This problem appeared in the Polish Olympiad during the 2016-17 school year, and is honestly one of my all-time favorite problems that I have done. Without further ado, here it is:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:15:27
In the Obolo* language, two systems of writing numbers existed. In the 1980s, the modern system replaced the older system. Below, twelve numbers between 11 and 99 are given in ascending order in the contemporary system (left column) and traditional system (right column).
stronto 2020-12-10 20:15:35
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
stronto 2020-12-10 20:15:46
*Obolo is part of the Niger-Congo family and has over 250,000 speakers. Although Obolo is a tonal language, the tone is not recorded in this problem
eye22 2020-12-10 20:15:49
oh my
stronto 2020-12-10 20:15:57
I know what a lot of you might be thinking right now. "How am I supposed to solve this, we don't even have English translations to compare these numbers with. Also - two different ways to write numbers?"
josh924 2020-12-10 20:16:00
ooh, interesting... no English
stronto 2020-12-10 20:16:13
Maybe you're in awe that Obolo has two different systems - I know I was.
d_j24 2020-12-10 20:16:19
OOHH
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 20:16:22
what... even... how.. ?????
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:16:30
it could be that they changed bases
stronto 2020-12-10 20:16:33
Languages can be really cool!
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:16:34
this seems a lot harder
stronto 2020-12-10 20:16:45
We're going to solve this problem (and this is a general strategy) by keeping the following rule in the back of our head: all languages have some sort of structure that makes a decent amount of sense (I say decent sense here because there are some languages that are really wild).
stronto 2020-12-10 20:17:12
So keeping this at the back of our head, we are going to try looking at the structure of these words to try to discern some sort of meaning from these words. First off, which system seems easier to tackle?
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:17:25
contemporary
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:17:25
left
AwesomeBrainiac 2020-12-10 20:17:25
contemporary
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:17:30
1
arkobanerjee 2020-12-10 20:17:30
The first
penguinempress 2020-12-10 20:17:30
the first...
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:17:30
left
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:17:33
contemporary!
RedFlame2112 2020-12-10 20:17:37
left is consistent
Allen31415 2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:17:38
left side
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:17:38
1st ne
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:17:38
Left. Less words.
senellenes 2020-12-10 20:17:40
The contemporary system
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:17:56
Contemporary.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:17:57
Yeah! Let's start with this system. Everyone, focus on the numbers on the left side. What is similar between all of them?
jbear911 2020-12-10 20:18:08
lots of "akɔp"s
nova_says 2020-12-10 20:18:08
it always starts with akep
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 20:18:08
akep
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:18:08
akop
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:18:09
Akop
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
penguinempress 2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
Dinoann 2020-12-10 20:18:18
akop
panu2206 2020-12-10 20:18:21
akop
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:18:28
akɔp
mgher 2020-12-10 20:18:28
akɔp
stronto 2020-12-10 20:18:38
Any other words that are quite commom?
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:18:48
me
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
penguinempress 2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
arkobanerjee 2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:18:53
"me"
lydia_math 2020-12-10 20:18:57
me
student205 2020-12-10 20:18:57
me
flashomatic 2020-12-10 20:19:02
me
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 20:19:02
me
stronto 2020-12-10 20:19:09
Exactly!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:19:14
Now, here's the hard part. Everyone, put on your "thinking like a linguist hat", and try to think about what these words might mean.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:19:39
My "thinking like a linguist" hat is green, for those who are curious
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:19:50
akop probably denotes tens place
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:19:50
does akop mean "tens place" and me mean "ones place"?
Alleosonia 2020-12-10 20:19:50
akop might mean its in the tens
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:19:50
Akɔp is probably a base number, while me might be "and" kind of like the French "four twenties and eight" for 88?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:20:11
Wow... you guys are good!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:20:17
A lot of languages, especially in their number system, have words that represent digits and words that represent structure stuff. For example, in English, we may say something like "one hundred fifty" - in this case, the "one" and "five" represent digits, while the "hundred" represents the structure of the number - that the digit "one" is in the hundreds place.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:20:30
Digits, in general, multiply with the values of the structure word that the digit is associated with. For example, the word "two hundred" has $2 \times 100$, with the digit being $2$.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:21:09
So, because these seem like two digit numbers (they're from 11-99), we want something that sort of means the tens place. In English, this is the -ty suffix; in Obolo, this is probably one of the two words we thought were "structure words". Which one of them is most likely it?
tealcreature 2020-12-10 20:21:23
akop
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
lydia_math 2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
IRO529 2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
mgher 2020-12-10 20:21:34
akɔp
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:21:34
akcp
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:21:34
akop
stronto 2020-12-10 20:21:44
Yeah, exactly - It's probably akɔp. One way to tell is to look at the line akɔp gweregwen = etip ita, and see that this is bigger than some of the other two digit numbers out there. If akɔp wasn't the tens digit, this wouldn't really make sense.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:21:57
Any ideas on what "me" could possibly mean?
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 20:22:07
+
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:22:07
and?
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:22:07
and
flashomatic 2020-12-10 20:22:07
ones place
josh924 2020-12-10 20:22:31
"and" before the ones place
IRO529 2020-12-10 20:22:33
could mean "and"
Language-Enthusiast 2020-12-10 20:22:33
and
d_j24 2020-12-10 20:22:33
and or +
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 20:22:33
to add the ones place to the tens place
stronto 2020-12-10 20:22:47
Yeah, "one's digit" and "and" are both great responses.
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:22:55
OHHH WAIT IT KINDA MAKES SENSE NOW
stronto 2020-12-10 20:23:08
That's what we're going for!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:23:20
If we quickly glance at the other side (the traditional number system), we can see that there are phrases like "me etip me akɔp", which makes me lean towards a translation of "and".
haokan 2020-12-10 20:23:21
and makes more sense than ones
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:23:21
the ones places
mgher 2020-12-10 20:23:21
oh wait I see a pattern
stronto 2020-12-10 20:23:41
Now, a natural step to take would be to think "well, akɔp and me are both structure words, so the other two words are likely to be digit words"
stronto 2020-12-10 20:23:46
Quick question - let's take the phrase "akɔp iba me go". We can agree that iba and go are digits. Which one would be the tens digit, and which one would be the ones digit?
nerd_07 2020-12-10 20:24:09
theres a pattern
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 20:24:09
iba is the tens digit?
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 20:24:15
iba is tens
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:24:19
"Iba" tens, "go" ones.
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:24:24
iba = tens digit, go = ones digit
senellenes 2020-12-10 20:24:25
iba = tens, go = ones
nova_says 2020-12-10 20:24:28
closer to akop
tuffm8 2020-12-10 20:24:30
iba is tens and go is ones
stronto 2020-12-10 20:24:41
Yeah, it would be iba. We already guessed that akɔp was the marker for the tens digit, so "iba" must be the tens digit because it is right next to akɔp (otherwise, the system would be linguistically unintuitive - remember from the first problem that things that describe other things are usualy next to what they describe!).
arkobanerjee 2020-12-10 20:25:39
More concretely, lines 1 and 8 can't be *so far apart if iba were one's digit
stronto 2020-12-10 20:26:03
Another interesting way, if you did not figure out that akɔp was the tens digit, would be to remember that the numbers are in ascending order. Then, you could notice the following section in the table:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:26:11
Good observation!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:26:14
\begin{align}

& \text{akɔp ini me jaaba} \\

& \text{akɔp ita me ge} \\

& \text{akɔp ita me jaaba} \\

\end{align}
stronto 2020-12-10 20:26:23
If the second position was the tens digit, there would be no way for this ordering to be possible. Then, because akɔp was next to the digit that is probably the tens digit, it would be the tens place
stronto 2020-12-10 20:26:50
Some of you have asked why there needs to be a set position for the tens digit and units digit. What if in one number, the first of the two digits is the tens digit, but in another number, the second of the two digits is the tens digit?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:27:05
Technically, you wouldn't be able to rule this possibility out. However, having a system like that is a bit crazy and thus makes less "linguistic sense". The idea is that all language has structure that makes a decent amount of sense. In general, I would assume that the structure is clean when solving these sorts of puzzles, and if you end up getting stuck somewhere, backtrack and rethink this assumption.
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:27:41
what about numbers like "eleven" and "twelve"
Kamior 2020-12-10 20:28:06
Yes, English is weird and sometimes combines the places, or even flips them as in "thirteen" and "fourteen".
stronto 2020-12-10 20:28:32
But in Obolo, we see that things are generally regular.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:28:43
We'll discuss more about this soon
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 20:28:44
Does this happen with other languages on this test?
msinghal 2020-12-10 20:29:02
Yes, in a lot of harder problems, there are irregularities with the language that you have to figure out!
masadca 2020-12-10 20:29:08
In many languages, the "teen" ending words are strange. I can't come up with any reasons. Do you have any ideas why?
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:29:17
NACLO is sooo fun!
masadca 2020-12-10 20:29:40
Do they just not like teens?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:29:57
In many languages, the teens are strange!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:30:05
But let's continue with the problem.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:30:10
When solving these sorts of puzzles, it's vital that we keep ourselves organized, and we also keep track of what we need to get. So, I have taken the liberty to collect all the words we see appear as digits. Here is a shortlist:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:30:19
ge, go, gweregwen, iba, ita, ini, jaaba, jeeta, onaange
stronto 2020-12-10 20:30:34
(Sidenote: if you see more than or less than $9$ possible digits, chances are, your language might not count in groups of $10$! This won't be discussed in this Math Jam much further, but counting in groups of $10$ is an assumption that turns out to seem to be correct in this case. If you want to know why I assumed this, it's for simplicity, and also because this is the "modern" counting system)
stronto 2020-12-10 20:30:58
Right now, we have all $9$ digits in our problem, which must correspond to $1-9$. In many languages, English included, while zero is technically a possible digit, we never use it when describing other numbers. As far as I know, I don't say things like one thousand, zero hundred fify-two, but that might just be me.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:31:22
What information can we gather about the values of these digits?
flashomatic 2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba<jeeta
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba is smaller than jeeta
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba < jeeta
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:31:52
iba is 2 or 3
andy3409 2020-12-10 20:31:52
Using the ascending order and the tens place, we can figure out their values
Dorothy2008 2020-12-10 20:31:54
Iba tens digit go ones digit
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:31:54
iba is the smallest, iba < jeeta
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:31:58
iba<jeeta
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 20:31:58
onaange > go?
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:31:58
jeeta>iba
IRO529 2020-12-10 20:32:06
we can order all of them except jeeta based on the ascending order of the list
stronto 2020-12-10 20:32:19
Yup - from our guess about which is the tens digit and which is the ones digit, we have:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:32:30
iba $<$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $<$ gweregwen $<$ jaaba $<$ onaange

ge $<$ jaaba

iba $<$ jeeta
stronto 2020-12-10 20:32:42
There's something that I hadn't really discussed in detail - that the first two numbers seem to not have a tens digit! Does anyone want to guess what this means?
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:33:04
it means it is a teen
sdpandit 2020-12-10 20:33:07
The ten's digit is 1?
jbear911 2020-12-10 20:33:09
their tens digit is 1?
copyllamasheep 2020-12-10 20:33:09
they are from 11-19
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:33:09
smaller than 20
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:33:22
it's just like saying ten, you don't have to say one ten
ges100 2020-12-10 20:33:31
akop alone means "10"
stronto 2020-12-10 20:33:32
Yes - it would be most likely that a tens digit of one is omitted, especially since these two are the lowest numbers. This "omission of one" is quite common across many languages, actually.
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:33:35
You wouldn't say, one ten and one one. You don't have to say one ten.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:33:48
Exactly!
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:33:52
are teens like ten so 13 is like three-ten?
flashomatic 2020-12-10 20:33:52
ten's digit is one
truth04 2020-12-10 20:33:52
They are multiples of ten
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:33:52
10<x<20
stronto 2020-12-10 20:33:53
For example, suppose I was trying to say this number: $102$. I could say "one hundred two", but sometimes you can just go for "hundred two".
stronto 2020-12-10 20:34:08
What extra information does this tell us about the values of the digits?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:34:31
We know that iba is really low... can it be $1$?
mubaishuidu 2020-12-10 20:34:32
iba is at least 2
arkobanerjee 2020-12-10 20:34:32
iba > 1
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:34:43
iba can't be 1
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:34:45
>1
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:34:45
at least 2
mgher 2020-12-10 20:34:49
iba > 1
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 20:34:52
wait why?
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:34:55
why can't iba be one?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:35:00
Iba cannot be $1$, as then it would be omitted. But, we know that iba is lower than seven other digits - ini, ita, go, gweregwen, jaaba, onaange, and jeeta. So, what is iba?
arkobanerjee 2020-12-10 20:35:14
iba = 2 exactly
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
haokan 2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 20:35:18
2!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:35:20
Exactly! If iba was any bigger than $2$, then we would only have $6$ or less digits that were greater than it.
Altair017 2020-12-10 20:35:22
two!
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:35:22
2!
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:35:22
2
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:35:38
2!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:36:04
To go back, if iba was $1$, then our assumption that having no tens digit means only $1$ ten doesn't make sense.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:36:09
We can actually figure out which digit is $1$ now. Which one?
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
Cuber999 2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
GA15 2020-12-10 20:36:42
Ge
haokan 2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:36:43
more than 1 because akop iba is bigger than akop
truth04 2020-12-10 20:36:43
ge?
GA15 2020-12-10 20:36:47
Ge=1?
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:36:48
Ge
mgher 2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge?
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge?
LeviZhao 2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge
stronto 2020-12-10 20:36:56
Exactly! ge is the only digit that we were not told in some way was greater than iba. So, this must be $1$.
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:37:08
OH I SEE
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:37:14
wow this is cool
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:37:22
OHH :o
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:37:24
Layers upon layers.
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:37:27
it is cool!
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:37:32
Cool!
mgher 2020-12-10 20:37:32
this is becoming my favorite problem now xD
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:37:35
having so many "aha!" moments rn
stronto 2020-12-10 20:37:50
Yeah, now you may understand why I love this problem
stronto 2020-12-10 20:38:01
Then, we basically have a fixed order for the rest of the digits, with jeeta somewhere (we don't know exactly where though yet). This gives us that ita can be $3$ or $4$, ini can be $4$ or $5$, go can be $5$ or $6$, and so on; and jeeta can be any number from $3$ to $9$.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:38:22
Unfortunately, it's hard to make any more progress just by looking at the modern system. But we made a lot of progress! So, when we're stuck, it's time to look at the part which we haven't used - the traditional system.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:38:41
We'll be using a similar approach - by first assuming that this system has a structure that makes a decent amount of sense.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:38:55
(Though admittedly a bit less clean than the moderm system)
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:39:55
inaan??
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:40:02
so they use etip and inaan?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:40:11
We have some new words - etip and inaan. We should probably try figuring out what they mean
stronto 2020-12-10 20:40:22
Let's focus on etip first. Is there a datapoint that can be really helpful in figuring out what etip is?
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:40:54
akop gweregwen
yellow_wind 2020-12-10 20:40:57
Ok Pranav, I can totally see why you love this problem.
mgher 2020-12-10 20:40:57
etip seems to show up a lot
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:40:57
akop gwergewen=etip ita
Altair017 2020-12-10 20:40:58
akop gweregren-etip ita
Wusters 2020-12-10 20:41:02
akop gweregwen = etip ita
stronto 2020-12-10 20:41:07
Yeah, exactly! We know what akɔp is, and we have a good idea on the meanings of both gweregwen and ita. The number akɔp gweregwen is either $60$ or $70$, while the right hand side is probably either $3 \times$ or $4 \times$ etip.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:41:18
What can we conclude from this?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:41:28
Does it make more sense for gweregwen to be $6$ or $7$?
baobaoj 2020-12-10 20:41:41
6
mubaishuidu 2020-12-10 20:41:41
gweregwen is most likely 6
bonesaw 2020-12-10 20:41:41
6!
Tuoni 2020-12-10 20:41:41
6
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:41:47
6
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:41:47
6
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
melodiya99 2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
flashomatic 2020-12-10 20:41:54
6
copyllamasheep 2020-12-10 20:41:54
6
nova_says 2020-12-10 20:41:54
6 has more factors
babyzombievillager 2020-12-10 20:42:00
I think it makes more sense for gweregwen to be 6.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:42:04
Exactly, gweregwen must be $6$, because $70$ is not divisible by $3$ or $4$, and it would be very weird for a language to use fractional amounts to represent whole-numbered values.
Monkey2004 2020-12-10 20:42:40
wait, how do we know we're multiplying on the right?
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:42:51
why is it 3x or 4x etip?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:42:59
Ah, good question!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:43:17
Digits in general multiply with the place values they are associated with
stronto 2020-12-10 20:43:30
For example, If I say 300, that's $3 \times 100$
mgher 2020-12-10 20:43:41
we noticed the traditional system used multiplication with akop for the tens place
msinghal 2020-12-10 20:44:09
The pattern in the left hand side indicates that we might think that "etip ita" is ita * etip, though this is still just an educated guess
stronto 2020-12-10 20:44:28
What other numbers can we conclude from this observation?
mgher 2020-12-10 20:44:40
ita is 3
DeutschReich12 2020-12-10 20:44:42
go 5, ini 4, ita 3
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:44:42
go = 5
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:44:47
etip is 20
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:44:50
ita=3?
andy3409 2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip is 20
Wusters 2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip = 20?
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip is 20 because 20 times 3 is 60
Cuber999 2020-12-10 20:45:15
etip is 20
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:45:18
etip = 20
kohlrabi 2020-12-10 20:45:21
etip is 20
navgup123 2020-12-10 20:45:25
and etip is 20
stronto 2020-12-10 20:45:30
Yeah - we get ita is $3$, ini is $4$, and go is $5$. This also means that etip is $20$. This is because we get $2 <$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $< 6$, which forces what value these digits can be. For etip, we have $3 \cdot$ etip is $60$, meaning etip is $20$.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:45:48
We're on the home stretch now! We have only four more components to take care of - the digits jaaba, jeeta, and onaange; which by process of elimination have to be $7$, $8$, and $9$ in some order; and inaan. Let's focus on figuring out the meaning of inaan, which should allow us to figure out which digit is which. I have, for the sake of time, have listed all the data where inaan is included:
stronto 2020-12-10 20:46:01
$\begin{align}

\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\

\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\

\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\

\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\

\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\

\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\

\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\

\end{align}$
stronto 2020-12-10 20:46:16
We can now partially translate everything - basically, fill in everything we know so far:

!$\begin{align}

10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan }2 \\

10 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \text{ and } 10 \\

10 \cdot 3 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \\

10 \cdot 4 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 10\\

10 \cdot 5 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 3 \\

10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 4\\

10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 5 \\

\end{align}$
stronto 2020-12-10 20:46:26
Let's clean up our translations a bit more
msinghal 2020-12-10 20:47:11
As our reminder, here is our progress so far:

akop: tens place

me: and

ge = 1

iba = 2

ita = 3

ini = 4

go = 5

gweregwen = 6

jaaba = 7 or 8

onaange = 8 or 9

jeeta = 7, 8, or 9
stronto 2020-12-10 20:47:25
What is a good guess for what inaan is?
mubaishuidu 2020-12-10 20:47:36
inaan is minus
bonesaw 2020-12-10 20:47:40
inaan = some sort of subtraction?
mubaishuidu 2020-12-10 20:47:40
minus
Lola2020 2020-12-10 20:47:40
innan minus
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 20:47:40
subtractionm
GA15 2020-12-10 20:47:48
Inaan is subtracting the number after it
duo_duo 2020-12-10 20:47:54
minus
tacos4life123 2020-12-10 20:47:57
subtraction?
candyjing1024 2020-12-10 20:48:11
subtract
stronto 2020-12-10 20:48:12
What's weird to me is that for all the numbers we know, the other side has a multiple of $10$ that is bigger than the number. For example, we have $25$ being written as (something) and $30$, $50$-something being written as (something) and $60$, and so on...
stronto 2020-12-10 20:48:19
This sort of makes me thin - "well, what if inaan is some sort of subtraction"?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:48:22
Well, does subtraction work?
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 20:48:24
i really like this problem
stronto 2020-12-10 20:48:46
stronto 2020-12-10 20:49:33
Oops, it seems like I made a typo with jaaba.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:50:00
$\begin{align}

10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \\

25 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 30 \\

30 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 40 \\

40 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 50 \\

50 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 60 \\

10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 80\\

10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 100 \\

\end{align}$
stronto 2020-12-10 20:50:13
Now, does it work?
jbear911 2020-12-10 20:50:29
ok, so jaaba is 7
eye22 2020-12-10 20:50:29
yes indeed
sdpandit 2020-12-10 20:50:38
yep
Altair017 2020-12-10 20:50:38
yes
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:50:39
jaaba has to be 7
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:50:48
yep!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:50:48
It seems like it almost works, except for $10$ and jeeta = inaan $2$. In fact, I'm going to say that it works, but I will explain how in a bit.
stronto 2020-12-10 20:51:16
First, what are the values of jaaba, jeeta, and onaange that we get?
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:51:29
jaaba is 7!!
bonesaw 2020-12-10 20:51:34
yeah so jaaba is 7, onaange is 9, and jeeta is 8
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:51:39
jaaba = 7 jeeta = 8 onaange = 9
stronto 2020-12-10 20:51:51
Precisely - $7, 8, $ and $9$, respectively.
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:51:53
then onaange is 9
nsb14 2020-12-10 20:51:53
jaaba is 7, jeeta is 8, onaange is 9
nova_says 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba -7 jeeta - 8
haokan 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba = 7, onaange = 8, jeeta = 8
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba=7 jeeta=8 oaange=9
IRO529 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba 7, jeeta 8 and onaange 9
Cuber999 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba 7, jeeta 8, onaange 9
dulaman 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
mgher 2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
bonesaw 2020-12-10 20:52:07
does the traditional system also leave implied when the base is 1? i.e. 18 = (implied etip)-2
nova_says 2020-12-10 20:52:08
i love how it's all coming together!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:52:12
Now, the first example currently reads $18 = -2$; we would expect the translation to be inaan iba me etip. But, we can sort of see that this etip can be implied. After all, most languages don't have negative numbers, so there wouldn't be an alternative meaning, and no confusion!
Jackrabbit1453 2020-12-10 20:52:15
does "inaan 2" implicitly also include twenty before it?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:52:20
Exactly!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:52:42
*Most languages don't have negative digits
stronto 2020-12-10 20:53:21
Task 1.1: Write all the expressions with numbers
stronto 2020-12-10 20:53:49
What are all the numbers that were in this list?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:54:28
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
stronto 2020-12-10 20:54:42
In this list
stronto 2020-12-10 20:55:18
Let's start with the first one
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:55:20
12
CraneShadow 2020-12-10 20:55:20
12
duo_duo 2020-12-10 20:55:26
12
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:55:32
12
tewa2 2020-12-10 20:55:34
12
rzl2005 2020-12-10 20:55:39
12, 18, 25, 34, 37, 41, 47, 52, 59, 60, 78, 95
stronto 2020-12-10 20:55:44
Perfect!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:55:56
Task 1.2: Write the following contemporary system expressions in the traditional system:

akɔp me go

akɔp gweregwen me ita

akɔp jeeta me gweregwen
stronto 2020-12-10 20:56:09
Let's start with the first one
stronto 2020-12-10 20:56:18
What is this number in English?
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 20:56:23
15
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 20:56:25
15
duo_duo 2020-12-10 20:56:27
15
sdpandit 2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
Apollonians 2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
CamilleL 2020-12-10 20:56:32
15
JCJC 2020-12-10 20:56:32
15
stronto 2020-12-10 20:56:36
Yup!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:56:48
Now, how is this converted into the traditional system
judgefan99 2020-12-10 20:56:55
15
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 20:56:55
it would be 5 less than 20
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 20:57:00
inaan go
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 20:57:00
inaan go
bonesaw 2020-12-10 20:57:00
so traditional is inaan go?
Wusters 2020-12-10 20:57:03
inaan go
Cuber999 2020-12-10 20:57:03
inaan go
stronto 2020-12-10 20:57:07
Yup!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:57:20
We have that it's 5 less than 20; but just like 18, the etip is implied
stronto 2020-12-10 20:57:43
Now, let's do the others
stronto 2020-12-10 20:57:46
The second one?
sdpandit 2020-12-10 20:58:21
then why doesn't akop me iba get converted to inaan jeeta?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:58:42
That's a good question!
bcho04 2020-12-10 20:58:59
does the subtractive system work for the teens when 15<=x<=19?
stronto 2020-12-10 20:59:05
Yeah!
stronto 2020-12-10 20:59:26
In general, inaan is only used when the units digit is 5-9
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 21:00:00
why is it used for 5 though
stronto 2020-12-10 21:00:15
Beats me, ask the Obolo speakers.
stronto 2020-12-10 21:00:27
I'm just the messenger here
stronto 2020-12-10 21:00:31
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 21:00:44
wait but why can you assume that for the answer to the first one?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:01:07
We can look at the examples to see what is subtractive and additive
stronto 2020-12-10 21:01:10
In other numbers where there is a units digit of go, we see inaan being used.
PhysKid11 2020-12-10 21:01:29
ohhh cool!
stronto 2020-12-10 21:02:00
Let's move on to the second translation, shall we?
stronto 2020-12-10 21:02:07
What is the number in English?
Cuber999 2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
tewa2 2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
haokan 2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
Dinoann 2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
Wusters 2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
haokan 2020-12-10 21:02:19
63
tewa2 2020-12-10 21:02:20
63
Math_is_Cool101 2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
candyjing1024 2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
User687861 2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
He.NHO 2020-12-10 21:02:33
63
stronto 2020-12-10 21:02:35
How do we write this in the traditional system?
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
ges100 2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
Cuber999 2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
tewa2 2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
bonesaw 2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
IRO529 2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
CraneShadow 2020-12-10 21:02:53
etip ita me ita?
mgher 2020-12-10 21:02:53
etip ita me ita
stronto 2020-12-10 21:02:58
Yup, it's 3 twenties and a 3
CreeperGam1ng 2020-12-10 21:03:00
etip ita me ita
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 21:03:02
20x3+3
stronto 2020-12-10 21:03:06
Precisely!
stronto 2020-12-10 21:03:24
And finally, the third number.
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
jbear911 2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
Cuber999 2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
bonesaw 2020-12-10 21:03:38
86
ARSM2019 2020-12-10 21:03:41
90-4
stronto 2020-12-10 21:03:46
I didn't even have to ask the question!
eb18 2020-12-10 21:04:16
well we're a smart bunch what can we say
stronto 2020-12-10 21:04:31
What is the translation?
Alleosonia 2020-12-10 21:04:39
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
Cuber999 2020-12-10 21:04:43
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
ges100 2020-12-10 21:04:43
inaan ini me etip ini me akɔp
haokan 2020-12-10 21:04:45
86, inaan ini me etip ini me akop
mgher 2020-12-10 21:04:48
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
stronto 2020-12-10 21:04:52
Exactly!
stronto 2020-12-10 21:05:05
Well, that's it for this problem.
stronto 2020-12-10 21:05:11
Hope you had fun doing this!
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:05:14
this is rlly cool
mgher 2020-12-10 21:05:16
Nice!
Mal0601 2020-12-10 21:05:19
yeah!
stronto 2020-12-10 21:05:19
We'll stay if people have questions about NACLO.
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:05:38
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php.
To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
devenware 2020-12-10 21:05:39
Now is the time to ask all your questions about NACLO.
devenware 2020-12-10 21:05:47
I'll get us started: When is it?
stronto 2020-12-10 21:05:59
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
epikhigh2003 2020-12-10 21:06:26
Will there be more NACLO mathjams? This was the most fun I've ever had on AOPS
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:06:37
We hope so!
averyeetmay 2020-12-10 21:06:47
what ages is NACLO for?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:07:19
Primarily high school but we do have some younger students who participate.
navgup123 2020-12-10 21:07:22
Outside of doing practice problems, what are other good ways to prepare for NACLO? Should we learn linguistics?
stronto 2020-12-10 21:07:40
Linguistics is not needed, but can be very helpful in terms of being exposed to what to check for.
haokan 2020-12-10 21:07:46
how will the online version of the NACLO work if we are taking it from home?
ges100 2020-12-10 21:07:46
When do we have to register by?
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:07:58
(Students under 13 need parental permission.)
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:07:59
January 15, 2021
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 21:08:04
approximately how many questions are given in the 3 hour open?
nova_says 2020-12-10 21:08:10
how many points would a question like that be worth?
stronto 2020-12-10 21:08:11
There will be 8 questions
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:08:19
That last question would probably be worth around 10–15 points
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:08:29
I'd guess 15-20.
rajsaha2007 2020-12-10 21:08:57
What is a normal score to advance?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:09:01
Varies a lot from year to year
rileywkong 2020-12-10 21:09:08
i feel like i'm playing 4d chess every time i solve a problem -- what do you recommend i do to organize my work>
stronto 2020-12-10 21:09:18
Highlighters, and writing tables or lists
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 21:09:22
can we take naclo online?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:09:32
Yes! Any student can taken it online this year
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:09:39
Yes, but read the handbook and reach out with questions. https://www.nacloweb.org/resources/handbook/
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:09:44
Would learning a language such as spanish or french put you at an advantage of understanding these linguistics concepts?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:09:46
Sign up for the "at-home" sign option when you register for NACLO
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:09:49
site*
navgup123 2020-12-10 21:10:20
How will the exam be proctored if we are at home?
mgher 2020-12-10 21:10:20
If we registered for an inperson site and it closed can we switch to home?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:10:30
Yes! You can switch to At-Home.
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:10:51
MasterInTheMaking: it might, but only to the extent that it'll help you get exposed to the kinds of ways languages can be different from one another -- but specific knowledge about a certain language generally won't help
Math-Scholar 2020-12-10 21:10:55
How many problems did you do to become so good?
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:11:02
Whats the best way to start understanding these linguistics things for competition work? Should I get any textbooks?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:11:05
Learning Spanish certainly helped with my understanding of languages!
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:11:06
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php.

To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0
stronto 2020-12-10 21:11:10
I filled a whole 3-inch binder full of practice questions!
Wusters 2020-12-10 21:11:30
Will we ever be required to explain how we reached an answer?
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:11:53
Another good source of practice questions is https://lingclub.mycpanel.princeton.edu/challenge/puzzles.php .
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:11:54
Wusters: generally not in the open round, but the invitational round will ask you to write explanations for many problems
navgup123 2020-12-10 21:12:27
Outside of NACLO, are there any other ways for high schoolers to explore linguistics?
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 21:12:57
yeah would there be resources to learn the linguistics concepts? like would you recommend finding books?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:13:37
https://calendar.stonybrook.edu/site/iacs/event/summer-youth-camp-for-computational-linguistics-syccl/ -- This is a summer event worth considering.
lorislevin 2020-12-10 21:13:47
PBS has Crash Course Linguistics. A podcast is All Things Linguistic.
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:13:49
also, i personally learned a good deal about linguistics just by reading random wikipedia articles because i found it interesting
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:13:57
so how did u guys become inspired by linguistics?
bronzetruck2016 2020-12-10 21:14:22
What if someone happens to know that language?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:14:27
This is a terrific online introductory textbook: https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/essentialsoflinguistics/front-matter/introduction/
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:14:54
I got interested in linguistics through the NACLO, actually!
stronto 2020-12-10 21:15:02
@nsb14 I just sort of found languages to be cool, and decided to pursue in further.
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:15:25
@bronzetruck20: usually the languages tend to be quite rare, so this is unlikely to happen
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 21:15:34
Have you seen a common Hoopoe in person?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:15:39
I hope to someday.
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:15:50
nsb14: my first exposure to linguistics was through conlangs, i think, which are constructed languages people invent (like toki pona, which is a constructed language with only 120 words!)
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:16:08
Standards for language obscurity are higher in the NACLO second round, and even higher in the IOL. In the first round, sometimes languages are common enough that some people have seen them before.
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:16:23
@snb14 I grew up in Greece where I learned English and then French and finally Russian. I just love languages.
dulaman 2020-12-10 21:16:25
How much harder is IOL than NACLO generally speaking?
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:16:42
(There are ~6000 languages in the world, most spoken by only a few hundred people, so there are plenty of choices for obscure languages.)
nova_says 2020-12-10 21:16:52
this was really fun!
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 21:16:52
What COVID-19 precautions will be taken at the University Sites.
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:17:03
I found the IOL to be quite a bit harder (the questions are also a slightly different style).
bronzetruck2016 2020-12-10 21:17:12
Why don't test writers just make up a language?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:17:12
@Joseph_Vaughn this will generally depend on the specific university site, I would suggest reaching out to the individual site hosts
amelia6grace 2020-12-10 21:17:17
@stronto I found this a really good experience and NACLO was a great find but I'm sad I found it so recently. I just applied to MIT to major in linguistics
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:17:23
Each site has its own NACLO website where you can read about their COVID-19 plans.
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:17:32
dulaman: the IOL lasts 6 hours for 5 problems, and generally only a few people get very close to a perfect score. you can see all the past problems on their website, https://ioling.org
stronto 2020-12-10 21:17:46
That's great to hear amelia6grace! Good luck, and I would love to meet more fellow linguistics majors!
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:17:49
@bronzetruck20 We want to test what actual languages are, not what a problem-writer's idea of a language is.
Orangecounty2 2020-12-10 21:17:51
can we reach out to you guys after this jam? if so, how?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:18:15
Feel free to shoot Pranav (stronto) a PM on AoPS!
vishwathganesan 2020-12-10 21:18:41
by the way I found this cool quiz if anyone's interested: https://www.sporcle.com/games/Scuadrado/indo-european-counting-puzzle?playlist=script-click&creator=Scuadrado&pid=1R9764e98 also, it looks like the guy's made like 30 of these; there's a playlist below the table
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:18:42
Also feel free to email us at naclo21org@umich.edu
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:19:03
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0. Check it out, too!
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:19:17
do the tests get harder every year?
nsalhotra 2020-12-10 21:19:24
thank you so much for doing this!! it was so interesting and i learned a lot. will there be another mathjam soon for this?
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:19:24
There have been problems with constructed languages, though, but usually only well-known constructed languages like Esperanto that are interesting examples of language themselves as opposed to ones constructed for a problem.
Apollonians 2020-12-10 21:19:29
How will the at-home site work? Are we going to be provided a portal that allows us to access the competition?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:19:47
@Apollonians we will be sending more information about logistics via email in January!
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:19:49
Yes, we will be in touch with all At-Home participants to walk you through the process.
lorislevin 2020-12-10 21:20:11
There are podcasts about linguistics and YouTube channels.
goodatusernames 2020-12-10 21:20:11
@bronzetruck i think conlangs are sometimes used in the NACLO (there's a problem with klingon iirc) but generally problems use natural languages. it's hard to invent a naturalistic language!
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:20:11
u guys are awesome, thanks for making this class fun
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:20:11
Looking at the NACLO website, it says that this is 1 of 12 science olympiads... what are the other 11 about! They could also be really cool!
IRO529 2020-12-10 21:20:42
thank you so much! i really enjoyed this
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 21:20:48
amazing but sad if the languages go extinct
Joseph_Vaughan 2020-12-10 21:20:51
Thank you, very interesting and Helpful. Have a good day!
nvt23 2020-12-10 21:20:54
How long is the test?
stronto 2020-12-10 21:20:59
@MasterInTheMaker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Science_Olympiad
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:20:59
The open round is 3 hours
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:21:04
4 hours for the invitational round
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:21:17
(which have 8 and 10 problems respectively)
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:21:18
@amuscorp Yes; a major project among linguists for the last few decades has been chronicling languages before they go extinct.
bronzetruck2016 2020-12-10 21:21:21
"Long ago the 12 science Olympiads lived in harmony"
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:21:35
How do we access the transcript for this thing?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:21:40
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.

The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.

This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:21:42
The transcript should be on the Math Jams page on AoPS
Alleosonia 2020-12-10 21:21:55
how hard are the test problems compared to this?
ajpsolvingart 2020-12-10 21:22:02
This was a super fun experience and I definitely plan on participating in as much of this as I am able! Thank you for hosting it!
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:22:05
Alleosonia: these are some of the previous test problems!
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:22:19
The second problem we did was an example of a medium-difficulty problem on the test
senellenes 2020-12-10 21:22:31
Thanks for the fun and the info everyone.
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:22:58
xD
mgher 2020-12-10 21:22:58
What other types of problems are there or is it mainly finding key words and translating
nova_says 2020-12-10 21:23:17
what makes the hard problems hard? do you have to guess a lot?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:23:33
one of the fun types of problems is what's called a "chaos and order" problem – they give you a bunch of words and their translations, but they scramble the order so that you don't know which corresponds to which
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:23:40
mgher: some other types of problems include problems about writing systems, how words sound, or how to make new words out of other words -- you might be able to get a sense of them by looking through some past contests at https://nacloweb.org
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:23:44
NACLO has a variety of problems. Check them out here: https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php. Some are based on writing systems, others on sounds of languages, and some are computational.
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:24:35
@nova_says: often with hard problems, either there is less information to allow you to figure things out, or the language has a "twist" that you have to guess – think of the omission of etip in the expression for 18, but harder
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:24:43
what are your guys favorite language?
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:24:45
Food Tongue, a constructed language in which every word is a food.
stronto 2020-12-10 21:24:52
Python, for the $$$
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:24:54
nova_says: sometimes languages can behave in unintuitive ways that you might not expect, so it can be hard to figure out how the systems work -- there can also be various processes obscuring other phenomena, like sound changes making it harder to figure out how words combine
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:25:08
nsb14: czech! the ř sound is the best
eye22 2020-12-10 21:25:54
can you briefly discuss how you enjoy studying cs and linguistics in college?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:26:17
Linguistics and cs is a great combination! There's actually a lot of overlap between the two fields
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:26:47
For example, any kind of problem that involves language and technology needs expertise from both linguistics and cs
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:26:53
mostly just taking classes that i've enjoyed -- some of my linguistics classes have been surprisingly similar to just doing naclo-style puzzles, so they were very fun
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:27:56
@stronto its been so long since i saw u, what up bro!
bronzetruck2016 2020-12-10 21:27:56
How do you get the letters from other languages on you keyboard?
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:27:59
copy and paste!
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:28:00
Copy and past from wikipedia
stronto 2020-12-10 21:28:18
@nsb14 The sky is technically up
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:28:19
compose key on linux
stronto 2020-12-10 21:28:37
\includepackage{tipa} for me
msinghal 2020-12-10 21:28:38
when I took a linguistics class I found software that mapped my keyboard to IPA characters
Kamior 2020-12-10 21:28:42
I get a lot of them by downloading Google Desktop, which is long-discontinued, and using key combinations like alt-' e in its sidebar.
Cuber999 2020-12-10 21:29:22
What time do at-home contestants write the exam at?
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:29:30
This will depend on your time zone
nsb14 2020-12-10 21:29:31
nice talking to new people, especially older than me, I hope u guys have a great weekend!
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:29:31
ok thanks!
rileywkong 2020-12-10 21:29:31
there's keyman desktop which has an ipa package
kevliang 2020-12-10 21:29:42
You can find more information in the handbook at the NACLO website (nacloweb.org)
mgher 2020-12-10 21:29:46
What jobs can you get with a linguistics major?
Aleka_NACLO 2020-12-10 21:31:30
Our linguistics majors move on to become researchers, teachers, editors, professors, computational linguists, translators, and so on.
devenware 2020-12-10 21:31:48
Alright, I think that's a wrap everyone! Thank you for being here.
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:32:06
Thank you so much!
nova_says 2020-12-10 21:32:06
Thank you! This was so fun
mgher 2020-12-10 21:32:06
thank you!
devenware 2020-12-10 21:32:09
Thanks again to all our guests for spending time with us tonight to tell us all about the NACLO, and thank you all for coming to the Math Jam!
MasterInTheMaking 2020-12-10 21:32:16
You guys are the best! AOPS is my favorite thing ever
devenware 2020-12-10 21:32:32
If you joined us late (or even if you didn't), a complete transcript of the discussion will be available shortly on our Math Jam Transcripts page at: https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/mathjams-transcripts.php
devenware 2020-12-10 21:32:42
And one of the NACLO people can post a link to NACLO to end the jam.
tckmn 2020-12-10 21:33:14
https://nacloweb.org
devenware 2020-12-10 21:33:24
Great! I am closing down the session now. Thanks again everyone!
mgher 2020-12-10 21:33:34
<3
stronto 2020-12-10 21:33:40
amuscorp. 2020-12-10 21:33:50
This session was so valuable!! I'm feeling a lot more confident and excited about the competition! I really don't want to leave, but thank you all for the amazing experience!

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