North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO) Discussion
Go back to the Math Jam ArchivePranav Krishna will be discussing North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO), the national competition for qualifying for the IOL (International Linguistics Olympiad). Problems require participants to decipher the structure of another language, and any central phenomena the problem writer wanted to highlight. While it is only tangentially related to mathematics, there have been those with notable accomplishments in math who have also done well in the NACLO and IOL.
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Facilitator: AoPS Staff
devenware
2020-12-10 19:30:26
Hello and welcome to the North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO) Discussion!
Hello and welcome to the North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition (NACLO) Discussion!
swimminggoofyseal
2020-12-10 19:30:48
Yay
Yay
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 19:30:48
hello
hello
Awesome24
2020-12-10 19:30:48
Yay!
Yay!
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 19:30:57
hi!
hi!
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 19:30:57
hi!!
hi!!
User687861
2020-12-10 19:30:57
yay
yay
Math_is_Cool101
2020-12-10 19:30:57
Yay!
Yay!
nsb14
2020-12-10 19:30:57
Hi everyone!
Hi everyone!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:30:59
Before I introduce our guests, let me briefly explain how our online classroom works.
Before I introduce our guests, let me briefly explain how our online classroom works.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:06
This room is moderated, which means that all your questions and comments come to the moderators. We may share your comments with the whole room if we so choose.
This room is moderated, which means that all your questions and comments come to the moderators. We may share your comments with the whole room if we so choose.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:27
We will ask you lots of questions throughout the class. You should answer them as best you can by typing in the chat.
We will ask you lots of questions throughout the class. You should answer them as best you can by typing in the chat.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:38
Participate as much as you can! And feel free to shout out questions at any time.
Participate as much as you can! And feel free to shout out questions at any time.
Lmno
2020-12-10 19:31:41
Is this being recorded?
Is this being recorded?
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:47
Yes, we will have a transcript available.
Yes, we will have a transcript available.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:53
Now let me introduce our guests for the evening.
Now let me introduce our guests for the evening.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:31:56
Tonight, Pranav Krishna (stronto) will be leading our discussion.
Tonight, Pranav Krishna (stronto) will be leading our discussion.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:32:00
Pranav is a current undergraduate at MIT, majoring in Computer Science and Linguistics, hoping to become a Computational Linguistics researcher. He was part of the IOL team in 2018 and 2019 In his free time, he generally enjoys playing the tuba, frisbee, and a lot of card games.
Pranav is a current undergraduate at MIT, majoring in Computer Science and Linguistics, hoping to become a Computational Linguistics researcher. He was part of the IOL team in 2018 and 2019 In his free time, he generally enjoys playing the tuba, frisbee, and a lot of card games.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:32:08
(Say Hi Pranav!)
(Say Hi Pranav!)
ILvMath
2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi
Hi
haokan
2020-12-10 19:32:21
hi!
hi!
swimminggoofyseal
2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi Pranaaav!!
Hi Pranaaav!!
tsvi14
2020-12-10 19:32:21
hi pranav!
hi pranav!
rileywkong
2020-12-10 19:32:21
HI PRANAV
HI PRANAV
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hi Pranav!!!!
Hi Pranav!!!!
A200251
2020-12-10 19:32:21
HI PRANAV!!
HI PRANAV!!
PSC
2020-12-10 19:32:21
Hello, Pranav!
Hello, Pranav!
eb18
2020-12-10 19:32:21
heyo pranav
heyo pranav
stronto
2020-12-10 19:32:26
Hello!
Hello!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:32:38
He will also be joined by Daniel Lovsted (naclocanada), Mihir Singhal (msinghal), Kevin Liang (kevliang), Andy Tockman (tckmn), Aleka Blackwell (Aleka_NACLO), and Adam Hesterberg (Kamior).
He will also be joined by Daniel Lovsted (naclocanada), Mihir Singhal (msinghal), Kevin Liang (kevliang), Andy Tockman (tckmn), Aleka Blackwell (Aleka_NACLO), and Adam Hesterberg (Kamior).
SciBoy2000
2020-12-10 19:32:53
Hi Daniel!
Hi Daniel!
Huxley
2020-12-10 19:32:53
Hi Daniel!
Hi Daniel!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:32:59
Daniel is a graduate student in philosophy currently based in Toronto, Canada. He first competed in NACLO in 2013, won a gold medal at the IOL in 2014, and since then has been a NACLO problem writer, editor, organizer, coach, and Canadian IOL team chaperone. Daniel's interests include looking at paintings, looking at photos of paintings, and spending time with his cats
Daniel is a graduate student in philosophy currently based in Toronto, Canada. He first competed in NACLO in 2013, won a gold medal at the IOL in 2014, and since then has been a NACLO problem writer, editor, organizer, coach, and Canadian IOL team chaperone. Daniel's interests include looking at paintings, looking at photos of paintings, and spending time with his cats
Huxley
2020-12-10 19:33:06
Hi Mihir!
Hi Mihir!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:33:09
Mihir is a current math major at MIT. He competed in the NACLO for seven years, and was on the IOL team in 2018. He enjoys puzzle hunts and card games in his free time. His favorite bird is the common hoopoe.
Mihir is a current math major at MIT. He competed in the NACLO for seven years, and was on the IOL team in 2018. He enjoys puzzle hunts and card games in his free time. His favorite bird is the common hoopoe.
Math_is_Cool101
2020-12-10 19:33:18
Yo Kevin
Yo Kevin
Pandayue
2020-12-10 19:33:18
Hi Kevin!
Hi Kevin!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:33:20
Kevin is a junior majoring in Linguistics and Computer Science at the University of Pennsylvania. He first took part in NACLO in 2017 and represented Team Canada at IOL in 2017 and 2018. Since then, he has been on the organizing and problem committees of NACLO. He loves sushi, maps, and just learning about different languages.
Kevin is a junior majoring in Linguistics and Computer Science at the University of Pennsylvania. He first took part in NACLO in 2017 and represented Team Canada at IOL in 2017 and 2018. Since then, he has been on the organizing and problem committees of NACLO. He loves sushi, maps, and just learning about different languages.
FCB10rr7
2020-12-10 19:33:23
Ello Andy!
Ello Andy!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:33:25
Andy is a current undergraduate studying math at MIT, minoring in computer science and linguistics. He competed in the IOL three times, in 2017-2019. He also enjoys programming, playing piano and viola, conlangs, board games, video games, logic puzzles, and puzzle hunts.
Andy is a current undergraduate studying math at MIT, minoring in computer science and linguistics. He competed in the IOL three times, in 2017-2019. He also enjoys programming, playing piano and viola, conlangs, board games, video games, logic puzzles, and puzzle hunts.
piphi
2020-12-10 19:33:35
ALEKA THE LEGEND!
ALEKA THE LEGEND!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:33:37
Aleka is a professor of Linguistics at Middle Tennessee State University. Aleka has been serving on the NACLO organizing committee since 2008 and currently serves as co-chair of NACLO. Aleka has authored problems for the competition since 2010, and she has coached and chaperoned the team members to the IOL since 2016.
Aleka is a professor of Linguistics at Middle Tennessee State University. Aleka has been serving on the NACLO organizing committee since 2008 and currently serves as co-chair of NACLO. Aleka has authored problems for the competition since 2010, and she has coached and chaperoned the team members to the IOL since 2016.
Awesome24
2020-12-10 19:33:43
Hi Adam
Hi Adam
rajsaha2007
2020-12-10 19:33:43
Hi Adam!
Hi Adam!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:33:46
Adam is the Assistant Director of Undergraduate Studies in CS at Harvard University. He competed in the NACLO in its first year, 2007, placed first in the IOL that year, and has been helping write/review problems, coach the US team, and grade the test ever since. He likes wordplay, cats, and graph theory
Adam is the Assistant Director of Undergraduate Studies in CS at Harvard University. He competed in the NACLO in its first year, 2007, placed first in the IOL that year, and has been helping write/review problems, coach the US team, and grade the test ever since. He likes wordplay, cats, and graph theory
AimFire
2020-12-10 19:34:02
Cool!!
Cool!!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:34:22
That's a lot of people. That should be all the help you guys could need.
That's a lot of people. That should be all the help you guys could need.
devenware
2020-12-10 19:34:51
So, tonight the general structure is:
1. They will introduce what NACLO is.
2. They will do some practice problems to show you what they are like
3. They will answer any questions you have.
So, tonight the general structure is:
1. They will introduce what NACLO is.
2. They will do some practice problems to show you what they are like
3. They will answer any questions you have.
RisBan
2020-12-10 19:35:03
This is awesome!
This is awesome!
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:35:03
I'm excited to get started!
I'm excited to get started!
AimFire
2020-12-10 19:35:03
ok!
ok!
devenware
2020-12-10 19:35:19
So, I'll pass you off to Pranav now.
So, I'll pass you off to Pranav now.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:35:32
Hello everyone!
Hello everyone!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:35:39
As Deven said, I'll be leading the discussion.
As Deven said, I'll be leading the discussion.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:35:49
First off, a bit of background about NACLO:
First off, a bit of background about NACLO:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:36:24
NACLO is a contest in which high-school students solve linguistic problems. In solving these problems, students learn about the diversity and consistency of language, while exercising logic skills. No prior knowledge of linguistics or second languages is necessary.
NACLO is a contest in which high-school students solve linguistic problems. In solving these problems, students learn about the diversity and consistency of language, while exercising logic skills. No prior knowledge of linguistics or second languages is necessary.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:36:40
To learn more about this free annual competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/.
To learn more about this free annual competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:36:54
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:37:07
The top 10% of participants in the Open Round of NACLO are invited to the invitational round. The top performers in the invitational round are invited to represent the US and Canada at the International Linguistics Olympiad (IOL). The 2021 IOL will be in Latvia, July 19-23, 2021. For more information, go to https://www.ioling.org/.
The top 10% of participants in the Open Round of NACLO are invited to the invitational round. The top performers in the invitational round are invited to represent the US and Canada at the International Linguistics Olympiad (IOL). The 2021 IOL will be in Latvia, July 19-23, 2021. For more information, go to https://www.ioling.org/.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:37:19
The IOL is one of 13 International Science Olympiads for secondary school students, and has been held annually since 2003. Each year, teams of young linguists from around the world gather and test their minds against the world’s toughest puzzles in language and linguistics.
The IOL is one of 13 International Science Olympiads for secondary school students, and has been held annually since 2003. Each year, teams of young linguists from around the world gather and test their minds against the world’s toughest puzzles in language and linguistics.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:37:32
No prior knowledge of linguistics or languages is required: even the hardest problems require only your logical ability, patient work, and willingness to think around corners.
No prior knowledge of linguistics or languages is required: even the hardest problems require only your logical ability, patient work, and willingness to think around corners.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:37:53
To participate in NACLO, you must satisfy all of the following criteria:
- You have never been enrolled as a full-time college or university student.
- You must be less than 20 years old on the first day of the IOL (July 19, 2021).
- You are a citizen of the US or Canada or a student in a secondary school in the US or Canada.
- You are available to take the test at one of the times it's offered.
To participate in NACLO, you must satisfy all of the following criteria:
- You have never been enrolled as a full-time college or university student.
- You must be less than 20 years old on the first day of the IOL (July 19, 2021).
- You are a citizen of the US or Canada or a student in a secondary school in the US or Canada.
- You are available to take the test at one of the times it's offered.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:38:08
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.
The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.
This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.
The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.
This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:38:42
But in order to really understand what NACLO is, it helps to showcase a few problems.
But in order to really understand what NACLO is, it helps to showcase a few problems.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:39:03
So, let's jump into some problems!
So, let's jump into some problems!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:39:09
Is everyone excited?
Is everyone excited?
CamilleL
2020-12-10 19:39:23
YEAH!!!
YEAH!!!
yofro
2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
yes!
bronzetruck2016
2020-12-10 19:39:25
YES!!
YES!!
haokan
2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
yes!
SciBoy2000
2020-12-10 19:39:25
yes!
yes!
lydia_math
2020-12-10 19:39:25
yep
yep
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 19:39:26
YEs!
YEs!
QuinnieThePooh
2020-12-10 19:39:26
Yeah!
Yeah!
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 19:39:26
Heck yeah!
Heck yeah!
baobaoj
2020-12-10 19:39:26
yes!
yes!
liljellyfish
2020-12-10 19:39:36
totally
totally
eye22
2020-12-10 19:39:36
yes!!
yes!!
Math-Scholar
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yes
Yes
copyllamasheep
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yeah!
Yeah!
aguan3002
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Ye
Ye
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yeyaaa!
Yeyaaa!
nsb14
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Oh yeah this is like the most exciting class yet!
Oh yeah this is like the most exciting class yet!
melodiya99
2020-12-10 19:39:36
Yes!
Yes!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:39:47
Here is our first problem:
Here is our first problem:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:39:54
Apinayé belongs to the Ge language family of Brazil. Currently it is spoken by less than 800
people, and therefore is seriously endangered. The following are some sentences in Apinayé,
along with their English translations. You will see some letters here that do not occur in the
English or Portuguese writing systems. You do not need to know exactly how these letters are
pronounced in order to solve this problem:
Apinayé belongs to the Ge language family of Brazil. Currently it is spoken by less than 800
people, and therefore is seriously endangered. The following are some sentences in Apinayé,
along with their English translations. You will see some letters here that do not occur in the
English or Portuguese writing systems. You do not need to know exactly how these letters are
pronounced in order to solve this problem:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:40:19
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto
2020-12-10 19:40:29
The end goal of this problem will be to translate sentences in Apinaye to English and from English to Apinaye.
The end goal of this problem will be to translate sentences in Apinaye to English and from English to Apinaye.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:40:35
I know this looks pretty daunting, especially if this is your first time experiencing a NACLO puzzle.
I know this looks pretty daunting, especially if this is your first time experiencing a NACLO puzzle.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:40:45
But I promise all of you that once this Math Jam is over, you'll think this is a piece of cake!
But I promise all of you that once this Math Jam is over, you'll think this is a piece of cake!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:40:56
First off, let's make sure we understand what we're given. What is this table telling us?
First off, let's make sure we understand what we're given. What is this table telling us?
AOPqghj
2020-12-10 19:41:31
That sentence = that sentence
That sentence = that sentence
AIMI99
2020-12-10 19:41:31
It is translating Apinaye to English
It is translating Apinaye to English
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:41:31
the translations of various sentences from Apinaye to English
the translations of various sentences from Apinaye to English
TomBradygoat
2020-12-10 19:41:31
haha!
haha!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:41:39
Right, this table contains the English translations of several Apinaye sentences. The end goal of this problem will be to translate some new sentences in Apinaye to English and vice versa.
Right, this table contains the English translations of several Apinaye sentences. The end goal of this problem will be to translate some new sentences in Apinaye to English and vice versa.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:41:48
Of course, before we start translating new sentences, we'll need to understand the sentences we're already given better. Any ideas where to begin with that?
Of course, before we start translating new sentences, we'll need to understand the sentences we're already given better. Any ideas where to begin with that?
FCB10rr7
2020-12-10 19:42:19
Ape means works
Ape means works
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:42:19
Ape = works
Ape = works
stronto
2020-12-10 19:42:29
Good eye! It looks like 'Ape' appears in a lot of sentences.
Good eye! It looks like 'Ape' appears in a lot of sentences.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:42:45
We can guess that this word means "works" because "works" appears in all the sentences that Ape appears in, and in the one sentence where Ape doesn't appear, neither does "works"!
We can guess that this word means "works" because "works" appears in all the sentences that Ape appears in, and in the one sentence where Ape doesn't appear, neither does "works"!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:44:12
Some people guessed that "Ape" is "the".
Some people guessed that "Ape" is "the".
stronto
2020-12-10 19:44:20
That's a good guess! "The" does appear in all the sentences that have Ape, but the first sentence has the word "the", but it doesn't have Ape in its translation.
That's a good guess! "The" does appear in all the sentences that have Ape, but the first sentence has the word "the", but it doesn't have Ape in its translation.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:44:39
Okay, so now we have found that Ape is most probably "works". Are there any other observations, or other words that we can figure out with a similar strategy?
Okay, so now we have found that Ape is most probably "works". Are there any other observations, or other words that we can figure out with a similar strategy?
RisBan
2020-12-10 19:45:09
Look for common words
Look for common words
dulaman
2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi- monkey
kokoi- monkey
ILvMath
2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
rileywkong
2020-12-10 19:45:09
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
Elephant123
2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
mgher
2020-12-10 19:45:17
monkey = kokoi
monkey = kokoi
AIMI99
2020-12-10 19:45:17
Can kokoi = monkey?
Can kokoi = monkey?
graciebelle1115
2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi means monkey
kokoi means monkey
Bluepenguin1417
2020-12-10 19:45:17
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
IRO529
2020-12-10 19:45:21
kokoi is monkey
kokoi is monkey
Hexag0n
2020-12-10 19:45:21
kokoi is monkey
kokoi is monkey
Alleosonia
2020-12-10 19:45:24
kokoi is monkey
kokoi is monkey
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 19:45:25
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 19:45:26
Kokoi is monkey
Kokoi is monkey
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi=monkey
kokoi=monkey
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi = monkey
kokoi = monkey
aj032806
2020-12-10 19:45:26
kokoi - monkey
kokoi - monkey
SC1
2020-12-10 19:45:26
Kokoi = Monkey
Kokoi = Monkey
eye22
2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi is monkey
kokoi is monkey
TreeKangaroo
2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi=monkey
kokoi=monkey
Allen31415
2020-12-10 19:45:29
kokoi -> monkey
kokoi -> monkey
Awesome24
2020-12-10 19:45:29
Kokoi is monkey
Kokoi is monkey
stronto
2020-12-10 19:45:41
Yup, kokoi is indeed monkey!
Yup, kokoi is indeed monkey!
TomBradygoat
2020-12-10 19:45:54
chid is kra
chid is kra
Tuoni
2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra = child
kra = child
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra means child
kra means child
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 19:45:54
kra = child?
kra = child?
sdpandit
2020-12-10 19:46:04
"kra" is child
"kra" is child
abiha1224
2020-12-10 19:46:04
kra = child
kra = child
rileywkong
2020-12-10 19:46:04
kra = child
kra = child
ggsgk90
2020-12-10 19:46:08
kra = child.
kra = child.
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 19:46:12
kra is child
kra is child
Ayan_Mahajan
2020-12-10 19:46:12
kra = child
kra = child
Kitsunekokoro
2020-12-10 19:46:14
Kra is child
Kra is child
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 19:46:15
kra = child
kra = child
stronto
2020-12-10 19:46:16
Yeah, kra is child!
Yeah, kra is child!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:46:39
You are getting this really fast!
You are getting this really fast!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:47:42
For those who are confused - these words all appear in multiple sentences, and there are English words that also are in those corresponding sentences but no where else. This makes us think that, for example, kra is child!
For those who are confused - these words all appear in multiple sentences, and there are English words that also are in those corresponding sentences but no where else. This makes us think that, for example, kra is child!
jbear911
2020-12-10 19:48:20
mi = man
mi = man
awesomeguy856
2020-12-10 19:48:20
mï is man
mï is man
CraneShadow
2020-12-10 19:48:20
mï = man
mï = man
stronto
2020-12-10 19:48:31
Yup, mi is man!
Yup, mi is man!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:49:39
This is sort of the limit of this method. Before we continue, let's tabulate what we have so far:
This is sort of the limit of this method. Before we continue, let's tabulate what we have so far:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:49:47
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto
2020-12-10 19:50:00
To proceed with the problem, we'll have to dig a bit deeper. For example, I see the word mεtš in two sentences - any guesses as to what that word means?
To proceed with the problem, we'll have to dig a bit deeper. For example, I see the word mεtš in two sentences - any guesses as to what that word means?
melodiya99
2020-12-10 19:50:07
mets = good or well?
mets = good or well?
mgher
2020-12-10 19:50:12
good/well
good/well
aopsuser008
2020-12-10 19:50:13
mεtš= good/well.
mεtš= good/well.
tealcreature
2020-12-10 19:50:13
good
good
Mathman04
2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
good/well
RaggedQuark2
2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
good/well
lasergazer
2020-12-10 19:50:13
good or well
good or well
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 19:50:13
good/well
good/well
WarriorKid
2020-12-10 19:50:19
mεtš=good, well
mεtš=good, well
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:50:19
good/well
good/well
PSC
2020-12-10 19:50:19
good or well
good or well
eb18
2020-12-10 19:50:20
good/well
good/well
Probblem_Solver_Artist
2020-12-10 19:50:22
good or well
good or well
MYZK
2020-12-10 19:50:22
good or well
good or well
haokan
2020-12-10 19:50:23
good/well
good/well
Jackrabbit1453
2020-12-10 19:50:28
good / well?
good / well?
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 19:50:28
good/well
good/well
navgup123
2020-12-10 19:50:28
good/well
good/well
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 19:50:28
good well
good well
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 19:50:32
good or well--> a positive action
good or well--> a positive action
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 19:50:32
good/well
good/well
stronto
2020-12-10 19:50:37
mεtš job, you all!
mεtš job, you all!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:50:44
It means good or well. These words mean really similar things, so it's not surprising that they share the same translation in Apinaye.
It means good or well. These words mean really similar things, so it's not surprising that they share the same translation in Apinaye.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:50:54
What are some next steps, or other strategies to consider?
What are some next steps, or other strategies to consider?
navgup123
2020-12-10 19:51:31
the order of the words and how that affects the sentence
the order of the words and how that affects the sentence
IRO529
2020-12-10 19:51:31
consider placement of mets to discern adjective vs adverb
consider placement of mets to discern adjective vs adverb
OliverA
2020-12-10 19:51:41
look at sentence order, disregard the...
look at sentence order, disregard the...
shnk
2020-12-10 19:51:41
discern placement of the words
discern placement of the words
Donut870
2020-12-10 19:51:43
find sentence structure
find sentence structure
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 19:51:44
identify sentence structure
identify sentence structure
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 19:52:02
Look at where words with similar uses are placed.
Look at where words with similar uses are placed.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:52:11
Wow, we're already getting ahead!
Wow, we're already getting ahead!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:52:20
Before this, let's start a bit simpler.
Before this, let's start a bit simpler.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:52:24
A common strategy is also to look for what's left to translate. For example, let's look at the sentence "Kukrε kokoi". Which word in this sentence do we know the translation of?
A common strategy is also to look for what's left to translate. For example, let's look at the sentence "Kukrε kokoi". Which word in this sentence do we know the translation of?
mgher
2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi
kokoi
baobaoj
2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi
kokoi
navgup123
2020-12-10 19:52:40
kokoi means monkey
kokoi means monkey
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 19:52:43
kokoi
kokoi
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 19:52:43
kokoi
kokoi
stronto
2020-12-10 19:52:47
And what is its translation?
And what is its translation?
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
monkey
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
monkey
PSC
2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
monkey
rzl2005
2020-12-10 19:52:56
monkey
monkey
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 19:52:59
monkey
monkey
stronto
2020-12-10 19:53:07
So now, we're left with the word Kukrε. What is this word most likely to mean?
So now, we're left with the word Kukrε. What is this word most likely to mean?
monkeysrcool
2020-12-10 19:53:16
eats
eats
sdpandit
2020-12-10 19:53:16
eats
eats
masadca
2020-12-10 19:53:20
Eats
Eats
AliCaliK
2020-12-10 19:53:22
therefor Kukrε must mean eats
therefor Kukrε must mean eats
navgup123
2020-12-10 19:53:22
eats
eats
Wusters
2020-12-10 19:53:22
eats
eats
rajsaha2007
2020-12-10 19:53:25
eats, 3rd Singular
eats, 3rd Singular
stronto
2020-12-10 19:53:34
That's right! We've already accounted for how "monkey" is represented in Apinaye, so we still need a word to represent the concept of eating.
That's right! We've already accounted for how "monkey" is represented in Apinaye, so we still need a word to represent the concept of eating.
tewa2
2020-12-10 19:53:37
eat(with conjugation)
eat(with conjugation)
stronto
2020-12-10 19:53:41
I'm sure some of you will be wondering - well, why can't it be "the"? For this question - it's complicated. But there should be some intuitive sense that accounting for more grounded things such as "eating" is much more important than trying to account for something as abstract as the word "the".
I'm sure some of you will be wondering - well, why can't it be "the"? For this question - it's complicated. But there should be some intuitive sense that accounting for more grounded things such as "eating" is much more important than trying to account for something as abstract as the word "the".
colourless_green_ideas
2020-12-10 19:53:46
eats
eats
stronto
2020-12-10 19:53:59
If you decide to pursue this further and do practice problems between now and January, you'll be able to hone this sense in by being exposed to a variety of languages. But for now... trust me on this.
If you decide to pursue this further and do practice problems between now and January, you'll be able to hone this sense in by being exposed to a variety of languages. But for now... trust me on this.
eb18
2020-12-10 19:54:18
its process of elimination, SOME word must be eats, so we assume its kukre
its process of elimination, SOME word must be eats, so we assume its kukre
stronto
2020-12-10 19:54:28
Yup, exactly! Couldn't have said it better!
Yup, exactly! Couldn't have said it better!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:54:34
Now, what other word can we figure out from this strategy?
Now, what other word can we figure out from this strategy?
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 19:54:51
rats is big
rats is big
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 19:54:51
rats
rats
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats = big
rats = big
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 19:54:53
ratš = big!
ratš = big!
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 19:54:53
ratš = big.
ratš = big.
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats is big
rats is big
ananyasharma
2020-12-10 19:54:53
rats
rats
OliverA
2020-12-10 19:54:54
rats is big
rats is big
devenware
2020-12-10 19:55:00
(I don't like big rats...)
(I don't like big rats...)
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:10
Me neither
Me neither
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:19
But yes, that is exactly right!
But yes, that is exactly right!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:23
Here's what we have so far:
Here's what we have so far:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:26
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:34
Before we move on to the translation portion of the problem, we have one last sentence to fully decipher: "Ape punui mï piŋetš", which means "The old man works badly". We can remember that Ape means works, and mï means man, but between punui and piŋetš, we need to figure out which one is "old" and which one is "badly".
Before we move on to the translation portion of the problem, we have one last sentence to fully decipher: "Ape punui mï piŋetš", which means "The old man works badly". We can remember that Ape means works, and mï means man, but between punui and piŋetš, we need to figure out which one is "old" and which one is "badly".
stronto
2020-12-10 19:55:52
Any ideas on how to crack the last piece of the puzzle?
Any ideas on how to crack the last piece of the puzzle?
mgher
2020-12-10 19:56:11
analyze sentence structur
analyze sentence structur
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 19:56:16
can we use sentence structure?
can we use sentence structure?
nova_says
2020-12-10 19:56:16
look at the sentence structure
look at the sentence structure
organic27
2020-12-10 19:56:16
we can look at the word good
we can look at the word good
twotothetenthis1024
2020-12-10 19:56:18
order in sentence
order in sentence
pandapo
2020-12-10 19:56:20
word order
word order
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 19:56:20
this is where sentence structure is helpful
this is where sentence structure is helpful
sdpandit
2020-12-10 19:56:27
Probably need to look at sentence structure to figure this out.
Probably need to look at sentence structure to figure this out.
beibeizhu
2020-12-10 19:56:35
Use the order in which the words appear?
Use the order in which the words appear?
stronto
2020-12-10 19:56:36
An important part of language is that it has structure. If we want to say something, we can't just choose a random order of words and say them! Try to think about where specific kinds of words were placed.
An important part of language is that it has structure. If we want to say something, we can't just choose a random order of words and say them! Try to think about where specific kinds of words were placed.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:56:47
Let's start a bit more specific - what is in common between all the first words of the Apinaye sentences?
Let's start a bit more specific - what is in common between all the first words of the Apinaye sentences?
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 19:57:00
Verb comes first.
Verb comes first.
Altair017
2020-12-10 19:57:03
Verb
Verb
tewa2
2020-12-10 19:57:03
verb
verb
mgher
2020-12-10 19:57:03
verbs
verbs
bibear
2020-12-10 19:57:03
verb
verb
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 19:57:05
they're all verbs
they're all verbs
dulaman
2020-12-10 19:57:05
verbs
verbs
OliverA
2020-12-10 19:57:09
it's a verb
it's a verb
ges100
2020-12-10 19:57:09
verb
verb
jbear911
2020-12-10 19:57:09
verbs
verbs
Apollonians
2020-12-10 19:57:14
They're all verbs.
They're all verbs.
fubar321
2020-12-10 19:57:14
All verbs
All verbs
stronto
2020-12-10 19:57:16
Exactly! And if there are two words, a verb and a noun, the verb always comes first.
Exactly! And if there are two words, a verb and a noun, the verb always comes first.
Pandayue
2020-12-10 19:57:24
LOOK AT SENTENCE STRUCTURE OF OTHER SENTENCES.
LOOK AT SENTENCE STRUCTURE OF OTHER SENTENCES.
ananyasharma
2020-12-10 19:57:24
Verbs come first
Verbs come first
stronto
2020-12-10 19:57:34
Now, suppose we get a little more complicated, and we add an Adjective. This is a word that describes a noun. Where would this go in Apinaye?
Now, suppose we get a little more complicated, and we add an Adjective. This is a word that describes a noun. Where would this go in Apinaye?
rltfxoltl
2020-12-10 19:57:53
after the noun
after the noun
shnk
2020-12-10 19:57:53
after subject
after subject
AwesomeBrainiac
2020-12-10 19:57:56
After the noun
After the noun
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 19:57:58
Right after the noun.
Right after the noun.
haokan
2020-12-10 19:57:58
adj goes after noun
adj goes after noun
Allen31415
2020-12-10 19:57:58
after noun
after noun
Bluepenguin1417
2020-12-10 19:57:58
last
last
rajsaha2007
2020-12-10 19:57:58
after noun
after noun
Tuoni
2020-12-10 19:57:58
After the noun
After the noun
melodiya99
2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
after the noun
nxw3783
2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
after the noun
IRO529
2020-12-10 19:57:58
after the noun
after the noun
Huxley
2020-12-10 19:57:58
After the noun
After the noun
Elephant123
2020-12-10 19:58:01
noun before adjective
noun before adjective
andy3409
2020-12-10 19:58:02
after the noun
after the noun
dulaman
2020-12-10 19:58:02
after noun
after noun
stronto
2020-12-10 19:58:06
Exactly! We can tell this is the case by examining sentences that have just a verb, noun, and adjective.
Exactly! We can tell this is the case by examining sentences that have just a verb, noun, and adjective.
stronto
2020-12-10 19:58:12
Ape kokoi ratš. $\longrightarrow$ ‘The big monkey works.'
Ape mï mεtš. $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'
Ape kokoi ratš. $\longrightarrow$ ‘The big monkey works.'
Ape mï mεtš. $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'
stronto
2020-12-10 19:58:22
Now, suppose I have an adverb that describes the verb instead of an adjective. Where would I put the adverb?
Now, suppose I have an adverb that describes the verb instead of an adjective. Where would I put the adverb?
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 19:58:38
after the verb
after the verb
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 19:58:38
after the verb
after the verb
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 19:58:47
after the verb
after the verb
ges100
2020-12-10 19:58:47
after the verb
after the verb
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 19:58:53
after verb
after verb
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 19:58:53
right after the verb
right after the verb
Dorothy2008
2020-12-10 19:58:53
After verb
After verb
tuffm8
2020-12-10 19:58:53
after the verb!!
after the verb!!
stronto
2020-12-10 19:58:56
Exactly! Apinaye puts it right after the verb, which for our purposes is the same as putting it between the verb and noun. We can actually compare the following two sentences:
Exactly! Apinaye puts it right after the verb, which for our purposes is the same as putting it between the verb and noun. We can actually compare the following two sentences:
stronto
2020-12-10 19:59:12
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ 'The child works well.'
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ 'The good man works.'
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ 'The child works well.'
stronto
2020-12-10 19:59:22
And see that the meaning of mεtš (which is good/well) can change depending on if it is in the adjective position or in the adverb position.
And see that the meaning of mεtš (which is good/well) can change depending on if it is in the adjective position or in the adverb position.
csalohcin
2020-12-10 19:59:45
Since Mets can be used as both as an adverb and an adjective we can look at its placement in order to determine the syntax. As we can see when used as an adverb it comes before the noun but when used as an adjective it comes after. Therefore punui is badly and piŋetš is old
Since Mets can be used as both as an adverb and an adjective we can look at its placement in order to determine the syntax. As we can see when used as an adverb it comes before the noun but when used as an adjective it comes after. Therefore punui is badly and piŋetš is old
Ayan_Mahajan
2020-12-10 19:59:45
verb, adverb, noun, adjective
verb, adverb, noun, adjective
organic27
2020-12-10 19:59:45
descriptive words follow after the object of description
descriptive words follow after the object of description
stronto
2020-12-10 19:59:57
Good job you all!
Good job you all!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:03
Good job you all!Now, back to our main question - how can we distinguish which of "punui" and "piŋetš" is "old" vs "badly"?
Good job you all!Now, back to our main question - how can we distinguish which of "punui" and "piŋetš" is "old" vs "badly"?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:19
Well, we can look at the positions of the two words. "punui" is right after the verb, so it must be the adverb "badly", while "piŋetš" is right after the noun, so it must be the adjective "old".
Well, we can look at the positions of the two words. "punui" is right after the verb, so it must be the adverb "badly", while "piŋetš" is right after the noun, so it must be the adjective "old".
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:23
Here is everything that we have gathered:
Here is everything that we have gathered:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:28
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
Apinayé $\longrightarrow$ English
Kukrε kokoi $\longrightarrow$ The monkey eats
Ape kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works
Ape kokoi ratš $\longrightarrow$ The big monkey works
Ape mï mεtš $\longrightarrow$ The good man works
Ape mεtš kra $\longrightarrow$ The child works well
Ape punui mï piŋetš $\longrightarrow$ The old man works badly
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 20:00:31
I got it!
I got it!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:33
The order of sentences in Apinayé is Verb (Adverb) Noun (Adjective)
The order of sentences in Apinayé is Verb (Adverb) Noun (Adjective)
stronto
2020-12-10 20:00:43
That's great to hear!
That's great to hear!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:01:02
Now we can move on to translating those new sentences!
Now we can move on to translating those new sentences!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:01:14
A1) Translate the following into English:
Ape ratš mï mεtš.
Kukrε ratš kokoi punui.
Ape piŋetš mï.
A1) Translate the following into English:
Ape ratš mï mεtš.
Kukrε ratš kokoi punui.
Ape piŋetš mï.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:01:24
A2) Translate the following into Apinayé:
'The big child works a long time.'
'The old monkey eats a lot.'
A2) Translate the following into Apinayé:
'The big child works a long time.'
'The old monkey eats a lot.'
stronto
2020-12-10 20:01:38
Let's start with the first sentence of A1, and take it word by word. First, what does Ape mean?
Let's start with the first sentence of A1, and take it word by word. First, what does Ape mean?
masadca
2020-12-10 20:02:01
Works
Works
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:02:04
works
works
bibear
2020-12-10 20:02:07
works
works
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:02:10
works
works
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
works
Sapereaude22
2020-12-10 20:02:11
Works
Works
ILvMath
2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
works
AliCaliK
2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
works
npierre22
2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
works
zasper
2020-12-10 20:02:11
Works
Works
tealcreature
2020-12-10 20:02:11
works
works
stronto
2020-12-10 20:02:14
What does ratš mean?
What does ratš mean?
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:02:25
big
big
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 20:02:27
big
big
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
big
Wusters
2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
big
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 20:02:28
big
big
aop2014
2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
Big
rileywkong
2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
big
josh924
2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
Big
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
big
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
big
AwesomeBrainiac
2020-12-10 20:02:35
Big
Big
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
big
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:02:35
big
big
stronto
2020-12-10 20:02:44
What does mï mean?
What does mï mean?
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
man
AliCaliK
2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
man
organic27
2020-12-10 20:03:13
man
man
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
LynnBee
2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
Man
sdpandit
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
masadca
2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
Man
eye22
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
mgher
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
AIMI99
2020-12-10 20:03:15
Man
Man
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:03:15
man
man
charming09j
2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
man
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
man
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
man
shark449
2020-12-10 20:03:21
man
man
colourless_green_ideas
2020-12-10 20:03:26
man
man
Dinoann
2020-12-10 20:03:30
man
man
stronto
2020-12-10 20:03:34
Finally, what does mεtš mean?
Finally, what does mεtš mean?
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:03:46
well
well
imanoobdude
2020-12-10 20:03:46
well/good
well/good
PSC
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
good
AliCaliK
2020-12-10 20:03:46
well/good
well/good
shark449
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
good
Cuber999
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
good/well
CraneShadow
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
good
organic27
2020-12-10 20:03:46
works
works
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
good/well
haokan
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
good/well
josh924
2020-12-10 20:03:46
Good/well
Good/well
colourless_green_ideas
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
good
BeautifulMath
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good/well
good/well
andy3409
2020-12-10 20:03:46
good
good
varshab
2020-12-10 20:03:56
good/well
good/well
twotothetenthis1024
2020-12-10 20:03:56
good/well
good/well
pandapo
2020-12-10 20:03:56
well/good
well/good
graciebelle1115
2020-12-10 20:03:56
good
good
stronto
2020-12-10 20:04:02
Putting it together, what do we get?
Putting it together, what do we get?
mr245
2020-12-10 20:04:13
man
man
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:04:13
the good man works bigly (haha bigly)
the good man works bigly (haha bigly)
Jackrabbit1453
2020-12-10 20:04:23
the good man works a lot?
the good man works a lot?
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:04:39
the good man works a lot
the good man works a lot
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 20:04:43
the good man works a lot.
the good man works a lot.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:04:56
Exactly!
Exactly!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:05:00
A lot of students have been saying "The big man works well", which is close, but incorrect. I remember also making the same mistake when I was first trying out this puzzle (back when I was just starting on my linguistics olympiad journey). Does anyone know why it's incorrect?
A lot of students have been saying "The big man works well", which is close, but incorrect. I remember also making the same mistake when I was first trying out this puzzle (back when I was just starting on my linguistics olympiad journey). Does anyone know why it's incorrect?
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:05:26
adjectives come after nouns, adverbs after verbs
adjectives come after nouns, adverbs after verbs
BeautifulMath
2020-12-10 20:05:35
Sentence structure?
Sentence structure?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:06:02
Correct! Here, ratš is an adverb (it comes after the verb), so it must describe the verb and mεtš is an adjective (it comes after the noun), so it must describe the noun.
Correct! Here, ratš is an adverb (it comes after the verb), so it must describe the verb and mεtš is an adjective (it comes after the noun), so it must describe the noun.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:06:16
But now we're sort of stuck - how does "big" become an adverb? We can't just say "The good man works bigly" (I mean, you could, but with points taken off).
But now we're sort of stuck - how does "big" become an adverb? We can't just say "The good man works bigly" (I mean, you could, but with points taken off).
stronto
2020-12-10 20:06:29
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:06:40
look at english sentences
look at english sentences
stronto
2020-12-10 20:06:41
(Hint: Look at A2)
(Hint: Look at A2)
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 20:06:48
look at A2 for ideas
look at A2 for ideas
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 20:06:52
you look at A2
you look at A2
stronto
2020-12-10 20:07:03
Looks like some of you are using the secret technique of solving the test... with the test!
Looks like some of you are using the secret technique of solving the test... with the test!
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 20:07:07
OH IT'S A LOT!!
OH IT'S A LOT!!
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 20:07:07
Works a lot, i see
Works a lot, i see
eye22
2020-12-10 20:07:19
a lot
a lot
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:07:23
"a lot"
"a lot"
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:07:23
"a lot"
"a lot"
shnk
2020-12-10 20:07:27
a lot
a lot
stronto
2020-12-10 20:07:29
Exactly, we can translate this as "a lot". Our sentence becomes "The good man works a lot."
Exactly, we can translate this as "a lot". Our sentence becomes "The good man works a lot."
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 20:07:33
it provided us the idea of "a lot"
it provided us the idea of "a lot"
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:07:41
A2 omg so interesting
A2 omg so interesting
imanoobdude
2020-12-10 20:07:49
omg thats so cool!
omg thats so cool!
shark449
2020-12-10 20:07:50
LOL! I do that too if a test asks a question and it says it directly on the test!
LOL! I do that too if a test asks a question and it says it directly on the test!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:07:54
The phrase "a long time" works better with the adjective "old".
The phrase "a long time" works better with the adjective "old".
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:08:12
"a lot" appears in A2 which implies you are able to say "a lot" with what you have
"a lot" appears in A2 which implies you are able to say "a lot" with what you have
stronto
2020-12-10 20:08:30
Yup!
Yup!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:08:37
Moving on, what is the translation for sentence 2?
Moving on, what is the translation for sentence 2?
d_j24
2020-12-10 20:08:46
cool!!
cool!!
charming09j
2020-12-10 20:08:50
cool
cool
AIMI99
2020-12-10 20:09:04
cool
cool
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:09:07
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
haokan
2020-12-10 20:09:08
The bad monkey eats a lot.
The bad monkey eats a lot.
Mal0601
2020-12-10 20:09:15
the bad monkey eats a lot
the bad monkey eats a lot
jbear911
2020-12-10 20:09:15
the bad monkey eats a lot
the bad monkey eats a lot
rileywkong
2020-12-10 20:09:15
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:09:20
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:09:20
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 20:09:23
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
rajsaha2007
2020-12-10 20:09:23
The bad monkey eats a lot
The bad monkey eats a lot
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 20:09:25
the bad monkey eats a lot
the bad monkey eats a lot
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:09:25
The bad monkey eats a lot.
The bad monkey eats a lot.
imanoobdude
2020-12-10 20:09:25
the bad monkey eats a lot
the bad monkey eats a lot
josh924
2020-12-10 20:09:30
oh, bad not old
oh, bad not old
stronto
2020-12-10 20:09:32
Exactly!
Exactly!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:09:39
And the third sentence?
And the third sentence?
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:10:00
the man works a long time
the man works a long time
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works a long time
The man works a long time
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:10:05
the man works for a long time
the man works for a long time
haokan
2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works a long time
The man works a long time
Jackrabbit1453
2020-12-10 20:10:05
The man works for a long time
The man works for a long time
Mathman04
2020-12-10 20:10:08
The man works a long time
The man works a long time
mgher
2020-12-10 20:10:16
The man works a long time
The man works a long time
AIMI99
2020-12-10 20:10:19
The man works for a long time
The man works for a long time
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:10:19
the man works for a long time
the man works for a long time
eye22
2020-12-10 20:10:19
the man works for a long time
the man works for a long time
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 20:10:20
the man works a long time
the man works a long time
Wusters
2020-12-10 20:10:24
The man works a long time
The man works a long time
stronto
2020-12-10 20:10:26
Some people are mixing up punui and pinets - remember, we found that punui means "bad" and pinets means "old"!
Some people are mixing up punui and pinets - remember, we found that punui means "bad" and pinets means "old"!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:10:48
"The man works a long time" is correct though!
"The man works a long time" is correct though!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:11:03
Great job, all of you!
Great job, all of you!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:11:15
I think it's time to move to a different, harder problem.
I think it's time to move to a different, harder problem.
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:11:47
Is it better to put "long" or "a long time" in situations like this?
Is it better to put "long" or "a long time" in situations like this?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:12:05
Because A2 had "a long time", it would be safer to translate it using this phrasing.
Because A2 had "a long time", it would be safer to translate it using this phrasing.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:12:12
But both should be accepted!
But both should be accepted!
tealcreature
2020-12-10 20:12:24
a long time is an adverb
a long time is an adverb
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 20:12:44
i'm really enjoying this thank you!
i'm really enjoying this thank you!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:12:55
No, thank you for coming!
No, thank you for coming!
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:12:58
How many points was this question worth?
How many points was this question worth?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:13:10
This appeared in 2008, and it was 10 points out of 100
This appeared in 2008, and it was 10 points out of 100
eb18
2020-12-10 20:13:16
yes i am hyped cuz i almost solved it at first except i mixed up two words
yes i am hyped cuz i almost solved it at first except i mixed up two words
stronto
2020-12-10 20:13:18
Nowadays, it would be a 5 point problem
Nowadays, it would be a 5 point problem
Dinoann
2020-12-10 20:13:37
it's not as hard as it sounds
it's not as hard as it sounds
stronto
2020-12-10 20:13:50
eye22
2020-12-10 20:14:14
im so excited
im so excited
stronto
2020-12-10 20:14:24
Yay, that's great to hear!
Yay, that's great to hear!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:14:32
Let's move on to the next problem!
Let's move on to the next problem!
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:14:41
YEEAAAHHHH!!!
YEEAAAHHHH!!!
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:14:41
so hyped for harder problems!
so hyped for harder problems!
d_j24
2020-12-10 20:14:41
YES WE ARE HYPED
YES WE ARE HYPED
rileywkong
2020-12-10 20:14:41
i want harder problems!!
i want harder problems!!
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 20:14:45
HYPE!!
HYPE!!
Altair017
2020-12-10 20:14:46
Hype!
Hype!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:14:49
HYPE!!!
HYPE!!!
tuffm8
2020-12-10 20:14:51
no we are TYPED
no we are TYPED
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:14:57
Ahhh heck yeah!
Ahhh heck yeah!
jingyihan
2020-12-10 20:14:57
PUZZLES!!
PUZZLES!!
msinghal
2020-12-10 20:15:04
HYPE!
HYPE!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:15:14
This problem appeared in the Polish Olympiad during the 2016-17 school year, and is honestly one of my all-time favorite problems that I have done. Without further ado, here it is:
This problem appeared in the Polish Olympiad during the 2016-17 school year, and is honestly one of my all-time favorite problems that I have done. Without further ado, here it is:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:15:27
In the Obolo* language, two systems of writing numbers existed. In the 1980s, the modern system replaced the older system. Below, twelve numbers between 11 and 99 are given in ascending order in the contemporary system (left column) and traditional system (right column).
In the Obolo* language, two systems of writing numbers existed. In the 1980s, the modern system replaced the older system. Below, twelve numbers between 11 and 99 are given in ascending order in the contemporary system (left column) and traditional system (right column).
stronto
2020-12-10 20:15:35
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
stronto
2020-12-10 20:15:46
*Obolo is part of the Niger-Congo family and has over 250,000 speakers. Although Obolo is a tonal language, the tone is not recorded in this problem
*Obolo is part of the Niger-Congo family and has over 250,000 speakers. Although Obolo is a tonal language, the tone is not recorded in this problem
eye22
2020-12-10 20:15:49
oh my
oh my
stronto
2020-12-10 20:15:57
I know what a lot of you might be thinking right now. "How am I supposed to solve this, we don't even have English translations to compare these numbers with. Also - two different ways to write numbers?"
I know what a lot of you might be thinking right now. "How am I supposed to solve this, we don't even have English translations to compare these numbers with. Also - two different ways to write numbers?"
josh924
2020-12-10 20:16:00
ooh, interesting... no English
ooh, interesting... no English
stronto
2020-12-10 20:16:13
Maybe you're in awe that Obolo has two different systems - I know I was.
Maybe you're in awe that Obolo has two different systems - I know I was.
d_j24
2020-12-10 20:16:19
OOHH
OOHH
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 20:16:22
what... even... how.. ?????
what... even... how.. ?????
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:16:30
it could be that they changed bases
it could be that they changed bases
stronto
2020-12-10 20:16:33
Languages can be really cool!
Languages can be really cool!
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:16:34
this seems a lot harder
this seems a lot harder
stronto
2020-12-10 20:16:45
We're going to solve this problem (and this is a general strategy) by keeping the following rule in the back of our head: all languages have some sort of structure that makes a decent amount of sense (I say decent sense here because there are some languages that are really wild).
We're going to solve this problem (and this is a general strategy) by keeping the following rule in the back of our head: all languages have some sort of structure that makes a decent amount of sense (I say decent sense here because there are some languages that are really wild).
stronto
2020-12-10 20:17:12
So keeping this at the back of our head, we are going to try looking at the structure of these words to try to discern some sort of meaning from these words. First off, which system seems easier to tackle?
So keeping this at the back of our head, we are going to try looking at the structure of these words to try to discern some sort of meaning from these words. First off, which system seems easier to tackle?
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:17:25
contemporary
contemporary
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:17:25
left
left
AwesomeBrainiac
2020-12-10 20:17:25
contemporary
contemporary
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:17:30
1
1
arkobanerjee
2020-12-10 20:17:30
The first
The first
penguinempress
2020-12-10 20:17:30
the first...
the first...
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:17:30
left
left
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:17:33
contemporary!
contemporary!
RedFlame2112
2020-12-10 20:17:37
left is consistent
left is consistent
Allen31415
2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
left
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
left
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:17:38
left
left
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:17:38
left side
left side
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:17:38
1st ne
1st ne
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:17:38
Left. Less words.
Left. Less words.
senellenes
2020-12-10 20:17:40
The contemporary system
The contemporary system
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:17:56
Contemporary.
Contemporary.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:17:57
Yeah! Let's start with this system. Everyone, focus on the numbers on the left side. What is similar between all of them?
Yeah! Let's start with this system. Everyone, focus on the numbers on the left side. What is similar between all of them?
jbear911
2020-12-10 20:18:08
lots of "akɔp"s
lots of "akɔp"s
nova_says
2020-12-10 20:18:08
it always starts with akep
it always starts with akep
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 20:18:08
akep
akep
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:18:08
akop
akop
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:18:09
Akop
Akop
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
akop
penguinempress
2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
akop
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:18:13
akop
akop
Dinoann
2020-12-10 20:18:18
akop
akop
panu2206
2020-12-10 20:18:21
akop
akop
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:18:28
akɔp
akɔp
mgher
2020-12-10 20:18:28
akɔp
akɔp
stronto
2020-12-10 20:18:38
Any other words that are quite commom?
Any other words that are quite commom?
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:18:48
me
me
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
me
penguinempress
2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
me
arkobanerjee
2020-12-10 20:18:53
me
me
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:18:53
"me"
"me"
lydia_math
2020-12-10 20:18:57
me
me
student205
2020-12-10 20:18:57
me
me
flashomatic
2020-12-10 20:19:02
me
me
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 20:19:02
me
me
stronto
2020-12-10 20:19:09
Exactly!
Exactly!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:19:14
Now, here's the hard part. Everyone, put on your "thinking like a linguist hat", and try to think about what these words might mean.
Now, here's the hard part. Everyone, put on your "thinking like a linguist hat", and try to think about what these words might mean.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:19:39
My "thinking like a linguist" hat is green, for those who are curious
My "thinking like a linguist" hat is green, for those who are curious
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:19:50
akop probably denotes tens place
akop probably denotes tens place
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:19:50
does akop mean "tens place" and me mean "ones place"?
does akop mean "tens place" and me mean "ones place"?
Alleosonia
2020-12-10 20:19:50
akop might mean its in the tens
akop might mean its in the tens
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:19:50
Akɔp is probably a base number, while me might be "and" kind of like the French "four twenties and eight" for 88?
Akɔp is probably a base number, while me might be "and" kind of like the French "four twenties and eight" for 88?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:20:11
Wow... you guys are good!
Wow... you guys are good!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:20:17
A lot of languages, especially in their number system, have words that represent digits and words that represent structure stuff. For example, in English, we may say something like "one hundred fifty" - in this case, the "one" and "five" represent digits, while the "hundred" represents the structure of the number - that the digit "one" is in the hundreds place.
A lot of languages, especially in their number system, have words that represent digits and words that represent structure stuff. For example, in English, we may say something like "one hundred fifty" - in this case, the "one" and "five" represent digits, while the "hundred" represents the structure of the number - that the digit "one" is in the hundreds place.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:20:30
Digits, in general, multiply with the values of the structure word that the digit is associated with. For example, the word "two hundred" has $2 \times 100$, with the digit being $2$.
Digits, in general, multiply with the values of the structure word that the digit is associated with. For example, the word "two hundred" has $2 \times 100$, with the digit being $2$.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:21:09
So, because these seem like two digit numbers (they're from 11-99), we want something that sort of means the tens place. In English, this is the -ty suffix; in Obolo, this is probably one of the two words we thought were "structure words". Which one of them is most likely it?
So, because these seem like two digit numbers (they're from 11-99), we want something that sort of means the tens place. In English, this is the -ty suffix; in Obolo, this is probably one of the two words we thought were "structure words". Which one of them is most likely it?
tealcreature
2020-12-10 20:21:23
akop
akop
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
akop
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
akop
lydia_math
2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
akop
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
akop
IRO529
2020-12-10 20:21:28
akop
akop
mgher
2020-12-10 20:21:34
akɔp
akɔp
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:21:34
akcp
akcp
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:21:34
akop
akop
stronto
2020-12-10 20:21:44
Yeah, exactly - It's probably akɔp. One way to tell is to look at the line akɔp gweregwen = etip ita, and see that this is bigger than some of the other two digit numbers out there. If akɔp wasn't the tens digit, this wouldn't really make sense.
Yeah, exactly - It's probably akɔp. One way to tell is to look at the line akɔp gweregwen = etip ita, and see that this is bigger than some of the other two digit numbers out there. If akɔp wasn't the tens digit, this wouldn't really make sense.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:21:57
Any ideas on what "me" could possibly mean?
Any ideas on what "me" could possibly mean?
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 20:22:07
+
+
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:22:07
and?
and?
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:22:07
and
and
flashomatic
2020-12-10 20:22:07
ones place
ones place
josh924
2020-12-10 20:22:31
"and" before the ones place
"and" before the ones place
IRO529
2020-12-10 20:22:33
could mean "and"
could mean "and"
Language-Enthusiast
2020-12-10 20:22:33
and
and
d_j24
2020-12-10 20:22:33
and or +
and or +
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 20:22:33
to add the ones place to the tens place
to add the ones place to the tens place
stronto
2020-12-10 20:22:47
Yeah, "one's digit" and "and" are both great responses.
Yeah, "one's digit" and "and" are both great responses.
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:22:55
OHHH WAIT IT KINDA MAKES SENSE NOW
OHHH WAIT IT KINDA MAKES SENSE NOW
stronto
2020-12-10 20:23:08
That's what we're going for!
That's what we're going for!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:23:20
If we quickly glance at the other side (the traditional number system), we can see that there are phrases like "me etip me akɔp", which makes me lean towards a translation of "and".
If we quickly glance at the other side (the traditional number system), we can see that there are phrases like "me etip me akɔp", which makes me lean towards a translation of "and".
haokan
2020-12-10 20:23:21
and makes more sense than ones
and makes more sense than ones
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:23:21
the ones places
the ones places
mgher
2020-12-10 20:23:21
oh wait I see a pattern
oh wait I see a pattern
stronto
2020-12-10 20:23:41
Now, a natural step to take would be to think "well, akɔp and me are both structure words, so the other two words are likely to be digit words"
Now, a natural step to take would be to think "well, akɔp and me are both structure words, so the other two words are likely to be digit words"
stronto
2020-12-10 20:23:46
Quick question - let's take the phrase "akɔp iba me go". We can agree that iba and go are digits. Which one would be the tens digit, and which one would be the ones digit?
Quick question - let's take the phrase "akɔp iba me go". We can agree that iba and go are digits. Which one would be the tens digit, and which one would be the ones digit?
nerd_07
2020-12-10 20:24:09
theres a pattern
theres a pattern
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 20:24:09
iba is the tens digit?
iba is the tens digit?
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 20:24:15
iba is tens
iba is tens
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:24:19
"Iba" tens, "go" ones.
"Iba" tens, "go" ones.
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:24:24
iba = tens digit, go = ones digit
iba = tens digit, go = ones digit
senellenes
2020-12-10 20:24:25
iba = tens, go = ones
iba = tens, go = ones
nova_says
2020-12-10 20:24:28
closer to akop
closer to akop
tuffm8
2020-12-10 20:24:30
iba is tens and go is ones
iba is tens and go is ones
stronto
2020-12-10 20:24:41
Yeah, it would be iba. We already guessed that akɔp was the marker for the tens digit, so "iba" must be the tens digit because it is right next to akɔp (otherwise, the system would be linguistically unintuitive - remember from the first problem that things that describe other things are usualy next to what they describe!).
Yeah, it would be iba. We already guessed that akɔp was the marker for the tens digit, so "iba" must be the tens digit because it is right next to akɔp (otherwise, the system would be linguistically unintuitive - remember from the first problem that things that describe other things are usualy next to what they describe!).
arkobanerjee
2020-12-10 20:25:39
More concretely, lines 1 and 8 can't be *so far apart if iba were one's digit
More concretely, lines 1 and 8 can't be *so far apart if iba were one's digit
stronto
2020-12-10 20:26:03
Another interesting way, if you did not figure out that akɔp was the tens digit, would be to remember that the numbers are in ascending order. Then, you could notice the following section in the table:
Another interesting way, if you did not figure out that akɔp was the tens digit, would be to remember that the numbers are in ascending order. Then, you could notice the following section in the table:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:26:11
Good observation!
Good observation!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:26:14
\begin{align}
& \text{akɔp ini me jaaba} \\
& \text{akɔp ita me ge} \\
& \text{akɔp ita me jaaba} \\
\end{align}
\begin{align}
& \text{akɔp ini me jaaba} \\
& \text{akɔp ita me ge} \\
& \text{akɔp ita me jaaba} \\
\end{align}
stronto
2020-12-10 20:26:23
If the second position was the tens digit, there would be no way for this ordering to be possible. Then, because akɔp was next to the digit that is probably the tens digit, it would be the tens place
If the second position was the tens digit, there would be no way for this ordering to be possible. Then, because akɔp was next to the digit that is probably the tens digit, it would be the tens place
stronto
2020-12-10 20:26:50
Some of you have asked why there needs to be a set position for the tens digit and units digit. What if in one number, the first of the two digits is the tens digit, but in another number, the second of the two digits is the tens digit?
Some of you have asked why there needs to be a set position for the tens digit and units digit. What if in one number, the first of the two digits is the tens digit, but in another number, the second of the two digits is the tens digit?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:27:05
Technically, you wouldn't be able to rule this possibility out. However, having a system like that is a bit crazy and thus makes less "linguistic sense". The idea is that all language has structure that makes a decent amount of sense. In general, I would assume that the structure is clean when solving these sorts of puzzles, and if you end up getting stuck somewhere, backtrack and rethink this assumption.
Technically, you wouldn't be able to rule this possibility out. However, having a system like that is a bit crazy and thus makes less "linguistic sense". The idea is that all language has structure that makes a decent amount of sense. In general, I would assume that the structure is clean when solving these sorts of puzzles, and if you end up getting stuck somewhere, backtrack and rethink this assumption.
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:27:41
what about numbers like "eleven" and "twelve"
what about numbers like "eleven" and "twelve"
Kamior
2020-12-10 20:28:06
Yes, English is weird and sometimes combines the places, or even flips them as in "thirteen" and "fourteen".
Yes, English is weird and sometimes combines the places, or even flips them as in "thirteen" and "fourteen".
stronto
2020-12-10 20:28:32
But in Obolo, we see that things are generally regular.
But in Obolo, we see that things are generally regular.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:28:43
We'll discuss more about this soon
We'll discuss more about this soon
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 20:28:44
Does this happen with other languages on this test?
Does this happen with other languages on this test?
msinghal
2020-12-10 20:29:02
Yes, in a lot of harder problems, there are irregularities with the language that you have to figure out!
Yes, in a lot of harder problems, there are irregularities with the language that you have to figure out!
masadca
2020-12-10 20:29:08
In many languages, the "teen" ending words are strange. I can't come up with any reasons. Do you have any ideas why?
In many languages, the "teen" ending words are strange. I can't come up with any reasons. Do you have any ideas why?
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:29:17
NACLO is sooo fun!
NACLO is sooo fun!
masadca
2020-12-10 20:29:40
Do they just not like teens?
Do they just not like teens?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:29:57
In many languages, the teens are strange!
In many languages, the teens are strange!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:30:05
But let's continue with the problem.
But let's continue with the problem.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:30:10
When solving these sorts of puzzles, it's vital that we keep ourselves organized, and we also keep track of what we need to get. So, I have taken the liberty to collect all the words we see appear as digits. Here is a shortlist:
When solving these sorts of puzzles, it's vital that we keep ourselves organized, and we also keep track of what we need to get. So, I have taken the liberty to collect all the words we see appear as digits. Here is a shortlist:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:30:19
ge, go, gweregwen, iba, ita, ini, jaaba, jeeta, onaange
ge, go, gweregwen, iba, ita, ini, jaaba, jeeta, onaange
stronto
2020-12-10 20:30:34
(Sidenote: if you see more than or less than $9$ possible digits, chances are, your language might not count in groups of $10$! This won't be discussed in this Math Jam much further, but counting in groups of $10$ is an assumption that turns out to seem to be correct in this case. If you want to know why I assumed this, it's for simplicity, and also because this is the "modern" counting system)
(Sidenote: if you see more than or less than $9$ possible digits, chances are, your language might not count in groups of $10$! This won't be discussed in this Math Jam much further, but counting in groups of $10$ is an assumption that turns out to seem to be correct in this case. If you want to know why I assumed this, it's for simplicity, and also because this is the "modern" counting system)
stronto
2020-12-10 20:30:58
Right now, we have all $9$ digits in our problem, which must correspond to $1-9$. In many languages, English included, while zero is technically a possible digit, we never use it when describing other numbers. As far as I know, I don't say things like one thousand, zero hundred fify-two, but that might just be me.
Right now, we have all $9$ digits in our problem, which must correspond to $1-9$. In many languages, English included, while zero is technically a possible digit, we never use it when describing other numbers. As far as I know, I don't say things like one thousand, zero hundred fify-two, but that might just be me.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:31:22
What information can we gather about the values of these digits?
What information can we gather about the values of these digits?
flashomatic
2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba<jeeta
iba<jeeta
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba is smaller than jeeta
iba is smaller than jeeta
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 20:31:41
iba < jeeta
iba < jeeta
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:31:52
iba is 2 or 3
iba is 2 or 3
andy3409
2020-12-10 20:31:52
Using the ascending order and the tens place, we can figure out their values
Using the ascending order and the tens place, we can figure out their values
Dorothy2008
2020-12-10 20:31:54
Iba tens digit go ones digit
Iba tens digit go ones digit
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:31:54
iba is the smallest, iba < jeeta
iba is the smallest, iba < jeeta
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:31:58
iba<jeeta
iba<jeeta
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 20:31:58
onaange > go?
onaange > go?
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:31:58
jeeta>iba
jeeta>iba
IRO529
2020-12-10 20:32:06
we can order all of them except jeeta based on the ascending order of the list
we can order all of them except jeeta based on the ascending order of the list
stronto
2020-12-10 20:32:19
Yup - from our guess about which is the tens digit and which is the ones digit, we have:
Yup - from our guess about which is the tens digit and which is the ones digit, we have:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:32:30
iba $<$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $<$ gweregwen $<$ jaaba $<$ onaange
ge $<$ jaaba
iba $<$ jeeta
iba $<$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $<$ gweregwen $<$ jaaba $<$ onaange
ge $<$ jaaba
iba $<$ jeeta
stronto
2020-12-10 20:32:42
There's something that I hadn't really discussed in detail - that the first two numbers seem to not have a tens digit! Does anyone want to guess what this means?
There's something that I hadn't really discussed in detail - that the first two numbers seem to not have a tens digit! Does anyone want to guess what this means?
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:33:04
it means it is a teen
it means it is a teen
sdpandit
2020-12-10 20:33:07
The ten's digit is 1?
The ten's digit is 1?
jbear911
2020-12-10 20:33:09
their tens digit is 1?
their tens digit is 1?
copyllamasheep
2020-12-10 20:33:09
they are from 11-19
they are from 11-19
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:33:09
smaller than 20
smaller than 20
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:33:22
it's just like saying ten, you don't have to say one ten
it's just like saying ten, you don't have to say one ten
ges100
2020-12-10 20:33:31
akop alone means "10"
akop alone means "10"
stronto
2020-12-10 20:33:32
Yes - it would be most likely that a tens digit of one is omitted, especially since these two are the lowest numbers. This "omission of one" is quite common across many languages, actually.
Yes - it would be most likely that a tens digit of one is omitted, especially since these two are the lowest numbers. This "omission of one" is quite common across many languages, actually.
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:33:35
You wouldn't say, one ten and one one. You don't have to say one ten.
You wouldn't say, one ten and one one. You don't have to say one ten.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:33:48
Exactly!
Exactly!
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:33:52
are teens like ten so 13 is like three-ten?
are teens like ten so 13 is like three-ten?
flashomatic
2020-12-10 20:33:52
ten's digit is one
ten's digit is one
truth04
2020-12-10 20:33:52
They are multiples of ten
They are multiples of ten
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:33:52
10<x<20
10<x<20
stronto
2020-12-10 20:33:53
For example, suppose I was trying to say this number: $102$. I could say "one hundred two", but sometimes you can just go for "hundred two".
For example, suppose I was trying to say this number: $102$. I could say "one hundred two", but sometimes you can just go for "hundred two".
stronto
2020-12-10 20:34:08
What extra information does this tell us about the values of the digits?
What extra information does this tell us about the values of the digits?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:34:31
We know that iba is really low... can it be $1$?
We know that iba is really low... can it be $1$?
mubaishuidu
2020-12-10 20:34:32
iba is at least 2
iba is at least 2
arkobanerjee
2020-12-10 20:34:32
iba > 1
iba > 1
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:34:43
iba can't be 1
iba can't be 1
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:34:45
>1
>1
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:34:45
at least 2
at least 2
mgher
2020-12-10 20:34:49
iba > 1
iba > 1
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 20:34:52
wait why?
wait why?
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:34:55
why can't iba be one?
why can't iba be one?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:35:00
Iba cannot be $1$, as then it would be omitted. But, we know that iba is lower than seven other digits - ini, ita, go, gweregwen, jaaba, onaange, and jeeta. So, what is iba?
Iba cannot be $1$, as then it would be omitted. But, we know that iba is lower than seven other digits - ini, ita, go, gweregwen, jaaba, onaange, and jeeta. So, what is iba?
arkobanerjee
2020-12-10 20:35:14
iba = 2 exactly
iba = 2 exactly
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
2
haokan
2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
2
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
2
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:35:14
2
2
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 20:35:18
2!
2!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:35:20
Exactly! If iba was any bigger than $2$, then we would only have $6$ or less digits that were greater than it.
Exactly! If iba was any bigger than $2$, then we would only have $6$ or less digits that were greater than it.
Altair017
2020-12-10 20:35:22
two!
two!
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:35:22
2!
2!
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:35:22
2
2
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:35:38
2!
2!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:36:04
To go back, if iba was $1$, then our assumption that having no tens digit means only $1$ ten doesn't make sense.
To go back, if iba was $1$, then our assumption that having no tens digit means only $1$ ten doesn't make sense.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:36:09
We can actually figure out which digit is $1$ now. Which one?
We can actually figure out which digit is $1$ now. Which one?
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
ge
Cuber999
2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
ge
GA15
2020-12-10 20:36:42
Ge
Ge
haokan
2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
ge
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
ge
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:36:42
ge
ge
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:36:43
more than 1 because akop iba is bigger than akop
more than 1 because akop iba is bigger than akop
truth04
2020-12-10 20:36:43
ge?
ge?
GA15
2020-12-10 20:36:47
Ge=1?
Ge=1?
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:36:48
Ge
Ge
mgher
2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge?
ge?
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge
ge
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge?
ge?
LeviZhao
2020-12-10 20:36:52
ge
ge
stronto
2020-12-10 20:36:56
Exactly! ge is the only digit that we were not told in some way was greater than iba. So, this must be $1$.
Exactly! ge is the only digit that we were not told in some way was greater than iba. So, this must be $1$.
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:37:08
OH I SEE
OH I SEE
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:37:14
wow this is cool
wow this is cool
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:37:22
OHH :o
OHH :o
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:37:24
Layers upon layers.
Layers upon layers.
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:37:27
it is cool!
it is cool!
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:37:32
Cool!
Cool!
mgher
2020-12-10 20:37:32
this is becoming my favorite problem now xD
this is becoming my favorite problem now xD
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:37:35
having so many "aha!" moments rn
having so many "aha!" moments rn
stronto
2020-12-10 20:37:50
Yeah, now you may understand why I love this problem
Yeah, now you may understand why I love this problem
stronto
2020-12-10 20:38:01
Then, we basically have a fixed order for the rest of the digits, with jeeta somewhere (we don't know exactly where though yet). This gives us that ita can be $3$ or $4$, ini can be $4$ or $5$, go can be $5$ or $6$, and so on; and jeeta can be any number from $3$ to $9$.
Then, we basically have a fixed order for the rest of the digits, with jeeta somewhere (we don't know exactly where though yet). This gives us that ita can be $3$ or $4$, ini can be $4$ or $5$, go can be $5$ or $6$, and so on; and jeeta can be any number from $3$ to $9$.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:38:22
Unfortunately, it's hard to make any more progress just by looking at the modern system. But we made a lot of progress! So, when we're stuck, it's time to look at the part which we haven't used - the traditional system.
Unfortunately, it's hard to make any more progress just by looking at the modern system. But we made a lot of progress! So, when we're stuck, it's time to look at the part which we haven't used - the traditional system.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:38:41
We'll be using a similar approach - by first assuming that this system has a structure that makes a decent amount of sense.
We'll be using a similar approach - by first assuming that this system has a structure that makes a decent amount of sense.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:38:55
(Though admittedly a bit less clean than the moderm system)
(Though admittedly a bit less clean than the moderm system)
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:39:55
inaan??
inaan??
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:40:02
so they use etip and inaan?
so they use etip and inaan?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:40:11
We have some new words - etip and inaan. We should probably try figuring out what they mean
We have some new words - etip and inaan. We should probably try figuring out what they mean
stronto
2020-12-10 20:40:22
Let's focus on etip first. Is there a datapoint that can be really helpful in figuring out what etip is?
Let's focus on etip first. Is there a datapoint that can be really helpful in figuring out what etip is?
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:40:54
akop gweregwen
akop gweregwen
yellow_wind
2020-12-10 20:40:57
Ok Pranav, I can totally see why you love this problem.
Ok Pranav, I can totally see why you love this problem.
mgher
2020-12-10 20:40:57
etip seems to show up a lot
etip seems to show up a lot
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:40:57
akop gwergewen=etip ita
akop gwergewen=etip ita
Altair017
2020-12-10 20:40:58
akop gweregren-etip ita
akop gweregren-etip ita
Wusters
2020-12-10 20:41:02
akop gweregwen = etip ita
akop gweregwen = etip ita
stronto
2020-12-10 20:41:07
Yeah, exactly! We know what akɔp is, and we have a good idea on the meanings of both gweregwen and ita. The number akɔp gweregwen is either $60$ or $70$, while the right hand side is probably either $3 \times$ or $4 \times$ etip.
Yeah, exactly! We know what akɔp is, and we have a good idea on the meanings of both gweregwen and ita. The number akɔp gweregwen is either $60$ or $70$, while the right hand side is probably either $3 \times$ or $4 \times$ etip.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:41:18
What can we conclude from this?
What can we conclude from this?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:41:28
Does it make more sense for gweregwen to be $6$ or $7$?
Does it make more sense for gweregwen to be $6$ or $7$?
baobaoj
2020-12-10 20:41:41
6
6
mubaishuidu
2020-12-10 20:41:41
gweregwen is most likely 6
gweregwen is most likely 6
bonesaw
2020-12-10 20:41:41
6!
6!
Tuoni
2020-12-10 20:41:41
6
6
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:41:47
6
6
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:41:47
6
6
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
6
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
6
melodiya99
2020-12-10 20:41:49
6
6
flashomatic
2020-12-10 20:41:54
6
6
copyllamasheep
2020-12-10 20:41:54
6
6
nova_says
2020-12-10 20:41:54
6 has more factors
6 has more factors
babyzombievillager
2020-12-10 20:42:00
I think it makes more sense for gweregwen to be 6.
I think it makes more sense for gweregwen to be 6.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:42:04
Exactly, gweregwen must be $6$, because $70$ is not divisible by $3$ or $4$, and it would be very weird for a language to use fractional amounts to represent whole-numbered values.
Exactly, gweregwen must be $6$, because $70$ is not divisible by $3$ or $4$, and it would be very weird for a language to use fractional amounts to represent whole-numbered values.
Monkey2004
2020-12-10 20:42:40
wait, how do we know we're multiplying on the right?
wait, how do we know we're multiplying on the right?
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:42:51
why is it 3x or 4x etip?
why is it 3x or 4x etip?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:42:59
Ah, good question!
Ah, good question!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:43:17
Digits in general multiply with the place values they are associated with
Digits in general multiply with the place values they are associated with
stronto
2020-12-10 20:43:30
For example, If I say 300, that's $3 \times 100$
For example, If I say 300, that's $3 \times 100$
mgher
2020-12-10 20:43:41
we noticed the traditional system used multiplication with akop for the tens place
we noticed the traditional system used multiplication with akop for the tens place
msinghal
2020-12-10 20:44:09
The pattern in the left hand side indicates that we might think that "etip ita" is ita * etip, though this is still just an educated guess
The pattern in the left hand side indicates that we might think that "etip ita" is ita * etip, though this is still just an educated guess
stronto
2020-12-10 20:44:28
What other numbers can we conclude from this observation?
What other numbers can we conclude from this observation?
mgher
2020-12-10 20:44:40
ita is 3
ita is 3
DeutschReich12
2020-12-10 20:44:42
go 5, ini 4, ita 3
go 5, ini 4, ita 3
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:44:42
go = 5
go = 5
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:44:47
etip is 20
etip is 20
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:44:50
ita=3?
ita=3?
andy3409
2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip is 20
etip is 20
Wusters
2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip = 20?
etip = 20?
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:45:14
etip is 20 because 20 times 3 is 60
etip is 20 because 20 times 3 is 60
Cuber999
2020-12-10 20:45:15
etip is 20
etip is 20
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:45:18
etip = 20
etip = 20
kohlrabi
2020-12-10 20:45:21
etip is 20
etip is 20
navgup123
2020-12-10 20:45:25
and etip is 20
and etip is 20
stronto
2020-12-10 20:45:30
Yeah - we get ita is $3$, ini is $4$, and go is $5$. This also means that etip is $20$. This is because we get $2 <$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $< 6$, which forces what value these digits can be. For etip, we have $3 \cdot$ etip is $60$, meaning etip is $20$.
Yeah - we get ita is $3$, ini is $4$, and go is $5$. This also means that etip is $20$. This is because we get $2 <$ ita $<$ ini $<$ go $< 6$, which forces what value these digits can be. For etip, we have $3 \cdot$ etip is $60$, meaning etip is $20$.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:45:48
We're on the home stretch now! We have only four more components to take care of - the digits jaaba, jeeta, and onaange; which by process of elimination have to be $7$, $8$, and $9$ in some order; and inaan. Let's focus on figuring out the meaning of inaan, which should allow us to figure out which digit is which. I have, for the sake of time, have listed all the data where inaan is included:
We're on the home stretch now! We have only four more components to take care of - the digits jaaba, jeeta, and onaange; which by process of elimination have to be $7$, $8$, and $9$ in some order; and inaan. Let's focus on figuring out the meaning of inaan, which should allow us to figure out which digit is which. I have, for the sake of time, have listed all the data where inaan is included:
stronto
2020-12-10 20:46:01
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
stronto
2020-12-10 20:46:16
We can now partially translate everything - basically, fill in everything we know so far:
!$\begin{align}
10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan }2 \\
10 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \text{ and } 10 \\
10 \cdot 3 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \\
10 \cdot 4 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 10\\
10 \cdot 5 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 3 \\
10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 4\\
10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 5 \\
\end{align}$
We can now partially translate everything - basically, fill in everything we know so far:
!$\begin{align}
10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan }2 \\
10 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \text{ and } 10 \\
10 \cdot 3 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \\
10 \cdot 4 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 2 \text{ and } 10\\
10 \cdot 5 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 3 \\
10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 4\\
10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 20 \cdot 5 \\
\end{align}$
stronto
2020-12-10 20:46:26
Let's clean up our translations a bit more
Let's clean up our translations a bit more
msinghal
2020-12-10 20:47:11
As our reminder, here is our progress so far:
akop: tens place
me: and
ge = 1
iba = 2
ita = 3
ini = 4
go = 5
gweregwen = 6
jaaba = 7 or 8
onaange = 8 or 9
jeeta = 7, 8, or 9
As our reminder, here is our progress so far:
akop: tens place
me: and
ge = 1
iba = 2
ita = 3
ini = 4
go = 5
gweregwen = 6
jaaba = 7 or 8
onaange = 8 or 9
jeeta = 7, 8, or 9
stronto
2020-12-10 20:47:25
What is a good guess for what inaan is?
What is a good guess for what inaan is?
mubaishuidu
2020-12-10 20:47:36
inaan is minus
inaan is minus
bonesaw
2020-12-10 20:47:40
inaan = some sort of subtraction?
inaan = some sort of subtraction?
mubaishuidu
2020-12-10 20:47:40
minus
minus
Lola2020
2020-12-10 20:47:40
innan minus
innan minus
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 20:47:40
subtractionm
subtractionm
GA15
2020-12-10 20:47:48
Inaan is subtracting the number after it
Inaan is subtracting the number after it
duo_duo
2020-12-10 20:47:54
minus
minus
tacos4life123
2020-12-10 20:47:57
subtraction?
subtraction?
candyjing1024
2020-12-10 20:48:11
subtract
subtract
stronto
2020-12-10 20:48:12
What's weird to me is that for all the numbers we know, the other side has a multiple of $10$ that is bigger than the number. For example, we have $25$ being written as (something) and $30$, $50$-something being written as (something) and $60$, and so on...
What's weird to me is that for all the numbers we know, the other side has a multiple of $10$ that is bigger than the number. For example, we have $25$ being written as (something) and $30$, $50$-something being written as (something) and $60$, and so on...
stronto
2020-12-10 20:48:19
This sort of makes me thin - "well, what if inaan is some sort of subtraction"?
This sort of makes me thin - "well, what if inaan is some sort of subtraction"?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:48:22
Well, does subtraction work?
Well, does subtraction work?
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 20:48:24
i really like this problem
i really like this problem
stronto
2020-12-10 20:48:46
stronto
2020-12-10 20:49:33
Oops, it seems like I made a typo with jaaba.
Oops, it seems like I made a typo with jaaba.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:50:00
$\begin{align}
10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \\
25 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 30 \\
30 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 40 \\
40 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 50 \\
50 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 60 \\
10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 80\\
10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 100 \\
\end{align}$
$\begin{align}
10 \text{ and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \\
25 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 30 \\
30 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 40 \\
40 \text{ and jaaba} & = \text{inaan } 3 \text{ and } 50 \\
50 \text{ and onaange} & = \text{inaan } 1 \text{ and } 60 \\
10 \cdot \text{jaaba and jeeta} & = \text{inaan } 2 \text{ and } 80\\
10 \cdot \text{onaange and } 5 & = \text{inaan } 5 \text{ and } 100 \\
\end{align}$
stronto
2020-12-10 20:50:13
Now, does it work?
Now, does it work?
jbear911
2020-12-10 20:50:29
ok, so jaaba is 7
ok, so jaaba is 7
eye22
2020-12-10 20:50:29
yes indeed
yes indeed
sdpandit
2020-12-10 20:50:38
yep
yep
Altair017
2020-12-10 20:50:38
yes
yes
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:50:39
jaaba has to be 7
jaaba has to be 7
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:50:48
yep!
yep!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:50:48
It seems like it almost works, except for $10$ and jeeta = inaan $2$. In fact, I'm going to say that it works, but I will explain how in a bit.
It seems like it almost works, except for $10$ and jeeta = inaan $2$. In fact, I'm going to say that it works, but I will explain how in a bit.
stronto
2020-12-10 20:51:16
First, what are the values of jaaba, jeeta, and onaange that we get?
First, what are the values of jaaba, jeeta, and onaange that we get?
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:51:29
jaaba is 7!!
jaaba is 7!!
bonesaw
2020-12-10 20:51:34
yeah so jaaba is 7, onaange is 9, and jeeta is 8
yeah so jaaba is 7, onaange is 9, and jeeta is 8
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:51:39
jaaba = 7 jeeta = 8 onaange = 9
jaaba = 7 jeeta = 8 onaange = 9
stronto
2020-12-10 20:51:51
Precisely - $7, 8, $ and $9$, respectively.
Precisely - $7, 8, $ and $9$, respectively.
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:51:53
then onaange is 9
then onaange is 9
nsb14
2020-12-10 20:51:53
jaaba is 7, jeeta is 8, onaange is 9
jaaba is 7, jeeta is 8, onaange is 9
nova_says
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba -7 jeeta - 8
jaaba -7 jeeta - 8
haokan
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba = 7, onaange = 8, jeeta = 8
jaaba = 7, onaange = 8, jeeta = 8
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba=7 jeeta=8 oaange=9
jaaba=7 jeeta=8 oaange=9
IRO529
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba 7, jeeta 8 and onaange 9
jaaba 7, jeeta 8 and onaange 9
Cuber999
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba 7, jeeta 8, onaange 9
jaaba 7, jeeta 8, onaange 9
dulaman
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
jaaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
mgher
2020-12-10 20:52:00
jaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
jaba = 7, jeeta = 8, onaange = 9
bonesaw
2020-12-10 20:52:07
does the traditional system also leave implied when the base is 1? i.e. 18 = (implied etip)-2
does the traditional system also leave implied when the base is 1? i.e. 18 = (implied etip)-2
nova_says
2020-12-10 20:52:08
i love how it's all coming together!
i love how it's all coming together!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:52:12
Now, the first example currently reads $18 = -2$; we would expect the translation to be inaan iba me etip. But, we can sort of see that this etip can be implied. After all, most languages don't have negative numbers, so there wouldn't be an alternative meaning, and no confusion!
Now, the first example currently reads $18 = -2$; we would expect the translation to be inaan iba me etip. But, we can sort of see that this etip can be implied. After all, most languages don't have negative numbers, so there wouldn't be an alternative meaning, and no confusion!
Jackrabbit1453
2020-12-10 20:52:15
does "inaan 2" implicitly also include twenty before it?
does "inaan 2" implicitly also include twenty before it?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:52:20
Exactly!
Exactly!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:52:42
*Most languages don't have negative digits
*Most languages don't have negative digits
stronto
2020-12-10 20:53:21
Task 1.1: Write all the expressions with numbers
Task 1.1: Write all the expressions with numbers
stronto
2020-12-10 20:53:49
What are all the numbers that were in this list?
What are all the numbers that were in this list?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:54:28
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
$\begin{align}
\text{akɔp me iba} & = \text{akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba} \\
\text{akɔp iba me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip me akɔp} \\
\text{akɔp ita me ini} & = \text{etip me akɔp me ini} \\
\text{akɔp ita me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba} \\
\text{akɔp ini me ge} & = \text{etip iba me ge} \\
\text{akɔp ini me jaaba} & = \text{inaan ita me etip iba me akɔp }\\
\text{akɔp go me iba} & = \text{etip iba me akɔp me iba} \\
\text{akɔp go me onaange} & = \text{inaan ge me etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp gweregwen} & = \text{etip ita} \\
\text{akɔp jaaba me jeeta} & = \text{inaan iba me etip ini }\\
\text{akɔp onaange me go} & = \text{inaan go me etip go} \\
\end{align}$
stronto
2020-12-10 20:54:42
In this list
In this list
stronto
2020-12-10 20:55:18
Let's start with the first one
Let's start with the first one
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:55:20
12
12
CraneShadow
2020-12-10 20:55:20
12
12
duo_duo
2020-12-10 20:55:26
12
12
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:55:32
12
12
tewa2
2020-12-10 20:55:34
12
12
rzl2005
2020-12-10 20:55:39
12, 18, 25, 34, 37, 41, 47, 52, 59, 60, 78, 95
12, 18, 25, 34, 37, 41, 47, 52, 59, 60, 78, 95
stronto
2020-12-10 20:55:44
Perfect!
Perfect!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:55:56
Task 1.2: Write the following contemporary system expressions in the traditional system:
akɔp me go
akɔp gweregwen me ita
akɔp jeeta me gweregwen
Task 1.2: Write the following contemporary system expressions in the traditional system:
akɔp me go
akɔp gweregwen me ita
akɔp jeeta me gweregwen
stronto
2020-12-10 20:56:09
Let's start with the first one
Let's start with the first one
stronto
2020-12-10 20:56:18
What is this number in English?
What is this number in English?
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 20:56:23
15
15
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 20:56:25
15
15
duo_duo
2020-12-10 20:56:27
15
15
sdpandit
2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
15
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
15
Apollonians
2020-12-10 20:56:28
15
15
CamilleL
2020-12-10 20:56:32
15
15
JCJC
2020-12-10 20:56:32
15
15
stronto
2020-12-10 20:56:36
Yup!
Yup!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:56:48
Now, how is this converted into the traditional system
Now, how is this converted into the traditional system
judgefan99
2020-12-10 20:56:55
15
15
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 20:56:55
it would be 5 less than 20
it would be 5 less than 20
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 20:57:00
inaan go
inaan go
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 20:57:00
inaan go
inaan go
bonesaw
2020-12-10 20:57:00
so traditional is inaan go?
so traditional is inaan go?
Wusters
2020-12-10 20:57:03
inaan go
inaan go
Cuber999
2020-12-10 20:57:03
inaan go
inaan go
stronto
2020-12-10 20:57:07
Yup!
Yup!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:57:20
We have that it's 5 less than 20; but just like 18, the etip is implied
We have that it's 5 less than 20; but just like 18, the etip is implied
stronto
2020-12-10 20:57:43
Now, let's do the others
Now, let's do the others
stronto
2020-12-10 20:57:46
The second one?
The second one?
sdpandit
2020-12-10 20:58:21
then why doesn't akop me iba get converted to inaan jeeta?
then why doesn't akop me iba get converted to inaan jeeta?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:58:42
That's a good question!
That's a good question!
bcho04
2020-12-10 20:58:59
does the subtractive system work for the teens when 15<=x<=19?
does the subtractive system work for the teens when 15<=x<=19?
stronto
2020-12-10 20:59:05
Yeah!
Yeah!
stronto
2020-12-10 20:59:26
In general, inaan is only used when the units digit is 5-9
In general, inaan is only used when the units digit is 5-9
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 21:00:00
why is it used for 5 though
why is it used for 5 though
stronto
2020-12-10 21:00:15
Beats me, ask the Obolo speakers.
Beats me, ask the Obolo speakers.
stronto
2020-12-10 21:00:27
I'm just the messenger here
I'm just the messenger here
stronto
2020-12-10 21:00:31
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 21:00:44
wait but why can you assume that for the answer to the first one?
wait but why can you assume that for the answer to the first one?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:01:07
We can look at the examples to see what is subtractive and additive
We can look at the examples to see what is subtractive and additive
stronto
2020-12-10 21:01:10
In other numbers where there is a units digit of go, we see inaan being used.
In other numbers where there is a units digit of go, we see inaan being used.
PhysKid11
2020-12-10 21:01:29
ohhh cool!
ohhh cool!
stronto
2020-12-10 21:02:00
Let's move on to the second translation, shall we?
Let's move on to the second translation, shall we?
stronto
2020-12-10 21:02:07
What is the number in English?
What is the number in English?
Cuber999
2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
63
tewa2
2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
63
haokan
2020-12-10 21:02:13
63
63
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
63
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
63
Dinoann
2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
63
Wusters
2020-12-10 21:02:16
63
63
haokan
2020-12-10 21:02:19
63
63
tewa2
2020-12-10 21:02:20
63
63
Math_is_Cool101
2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
63
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
63
candyjing1024
2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
63
User687861
2020-12-10 21:02:26
63
63
He.NHO
2020-12-10 21:02:33
63
63
stronto
2020-12-10 21:02:35
How do we write this in the traditional system?
How do we write this in the traditional system?
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
ges100
2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
Cuber999
2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
tewa2
2020-12-10 21:02:46
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
bonesaw
2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
IRO529
2020-12-10 21:02:51
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
CraneShadow
2020-12-10 21:02:53
etip ita me ita?
etip ita me ita?
mgher
2020-12-10 21:02:53
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
stronto
2020-12-10 21:02:58
Yup, it's 3 twenties and a 3
Yup, it's 3 twenties and a 3
CreeperGam1ng
2020-12-10 21:03:00
etip ita me ita
etip ita me ita
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 21:03:02
20x3+3
20x3+3
stronto
2020-12-10 21:03:06
Precisely!
Precisely!
stronto
2020-12-10 21:03:24
And finally, the third number.
And finally, the third number.
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
86
jbear911
2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
86
Cuber999
2020-12-10 21:03:32
86
86
bonesaw
2020-12-10 21:03:38
86
86
ARSM2019
2020-12-10 21:03:41
90-4
90-4
stronto
2020-12-10 21:03:46
I didn't even have to ask the question!
I didn't even have to ask the question!
eb18
2020-12-10 21:04:16
well we're a smart bunch what can we say
well we're a smart bunch what can we say
stronto
2020-12-10 21:04:31
What is the translation?
What is the translation?
Alleosonia
2020-12-10 21:04:39
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
Cuber999
2020-12-10 21:04:43
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
ges100
2020-12-10 21:04:43
inaan ini me etip ini me akɔp
inaan ini me etip ini me akɔp
haokan
2020-12-10 21:04:45
86, inaan ini me etip ini me akop
86, inaan ini me etip ini me akop
mgher
2020-12-10 21:04:48
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
inaan ini me etip ini me akop
stronto
2020-12-10 21:04:52
Exactly!
Exactly!
stronto
2020-12-10 21:05:05
Well, that's it for this problem.
Well, that's it for this problem.
stronto
2020-12-10 21:05:11
Hope you had fun doing this!
Hope you had fun doing this!
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:05:14
this is rlly cool
this is rlly cool
mgher
2020-12-10 21:05:16
Nice!
Nice!
Mal0601
2020-12-10 21:05:19
yeah!
yeah!
stronto
2020-12-10 21:05:19
We'll stay if people have questions about NACLO.
We'll stay if people have questions about NACLO.
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:05:38
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php. To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php. To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
devenware
2020-12-10 21:05:39
Now is the time to ask all your questions about NACLO.
Now is the time to ask all your questions about NACLO.
devenware
2020-12-10 21:05:47
I'll get us started: When is it?
I'll get us started: When is it?
stronto
2020-12-10 21:05:59
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
This year’s Open Round of NACLO is on January 28, 2021. You can compete at a university or high school site listed on the NACLO registration website, or you can compete from home (if you are homebound or homeschooled). To register for the competition, go to https://www.nacloweb.org/register_student.php.
epikhigh2003
2020-12-10 21:06:26
Will there be more NACLO mathjams? This was the most fun I've ever had on AOPS
Will there be more NACLO mathjams? This was the most fun I've ever had on AOPS
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:06:37
We hope so!
We hope so!
averyeetmay
2020-12-10 21:06:47
what ages is NACLO for?
what ages is NACLO for?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:07:19
Primarily high school but we do have some younger students who participate.
Primarily high school but we do have some younger students who participate.
navgup123
2020-12-10 21:07:22
Outside of doing practice problems, what are other good ways to prepare for NACLO? Should we learn linguistics?
Outside of doing practice problems, what are other good ways to prepare for NACLO? Should we learn linguistics?
stronto
2020-12-10 21:07:40
Linguistics is not needed, but can be very helpful in terms of being exposed to what to check for.
Linguistics is not needed, but can be very helpful in terms of being exposed to what to check for.
haokan
2020-12-10 21:07:46
how will the online version of the NACLO work if we are taking it from home?
how will the online version of the NACLO work if we are taking it from home?
ges100
2020-12-10 21:07:46
When do we have to register by?
When do we have to register by?
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:07:58
(Students under 13 need parental permission.)
(Students under 13 need parental permission.)
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:07:59
January 15, 2021
January 15, 2021
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 21:08:04
approximately how many questions are given in the 3 hour open?
approximately how many questions are given in the 3 hour open?
nova_says
2020-12-10 21:08:10
how many points would a question like that be worth?
how many points would a question like that be worth?
stronto
2020-12-10 21:08:11
There will be 8 questions
There will be 8 questions
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:08:19
That last question would probably be worth around 10–15 points
That last question would probably be worth around 10–15 points
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:08:29
I'd guess 15-20.
I'd guess 15-20.
rajsaha2007
2020-12-10 21:08:57
What is a normal score to advance?
What is a normal score to advance?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:09:01
Varies a lot from year to year
Varies a lot from year to year
rileywkong
2020-12-10 21:09:08
i feel like i'm playing 4d chess every time i solve a problem -- what do you recommend i do to organize my work>
i feel like i'm playing 4d chess every time i solve a problem -- what do you recommend i do to organize my work>
stronto
2020-12-10 21:09:18
Highlighters, and writing tables or lists
Highlighters, and writing tables or lists
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 21:09:22
can we take naclo online?
can we take naclo online?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:09:32
Yes! Any student can taken it online this year
Yes! Any student can taken it online this year
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:09:39
Yes, but read the handbook and reach out with questions. https://www.nacloweb.org/resources/handbook/
Yes, but read the handbook and reach out with questions. https://www.nacloweb.org/resources/handbook/
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:09:44
Would learning a language such as spanish or french put you at an advantage of understanding these linguistics concepts?
Would learning a language such as spanish or french put you at an advantage of understanding these linguistics concepts?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:09:46
Sign up for the "at-home" sign option when you register for NACLO
Sign up for the "at-home" sign option when you register for NACLO
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:09:49
site*
site*
navgup123
2020-12-10 21:10:20
How will the exam be proctored if we are at home?
How will the exam be proctored if we are at home?
mgher
2020-12-10 21:10:20
If we registered for an inperson site and it closed can we switch to home?
If we registered for an inperson site and it closed can we switch to home?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:10:30
Yes! You can switch to At-Home.
Yes! You can switch to At-Home.
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:10:51
MasterInTheMaking: it might, but only to the extent that it'll help you get exposed to the kinds of ways languages can be different from one another -- but specific knowledge about a certain language generally won't help
MasterInTheMaking: it might, but only to the extent that it'll help you get exposed to the kinds of ways languages can be different from one another -- but specific knowledge about a certain language generally won't help
Math-Scholar
2020-12-10 21:10:55
How many problems did you do to become so good?
How many problems did you do to become so good?
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:11:02
Whats the best way to start understanding these linguistics things for competition work? Should I get any textbooks?
Whats the best way to start understanding these linguistics things for competition work? Should I get any textbooks?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:11:05
Learning Spanish certainly helped with my understanding of languages!
Learning Spanish certainly helped with my understanding of languages!
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:11:06
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php.
To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0
If you enjoyed solving today’s problems with us, you can practice solving more such problems by going to https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php.
To practice solving problems from past IOL competitions, you can go to https://ioling.org/problems/.
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0
stronto
2020-12-10 21:11:10
I filled a whole 3-inch binder full of practice questions!
I filled a whole 3-inch binder full of practice questions!
Wusters
2020-12-10 21:11:30
Will we ever be required to explain how we reached an answer?
Will we ever be required to explain how we reached an answer?
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:11:53
Another good source of practice questions is https://lingclub.mycpanel.princeton.edu/challenge/puzzles.php .
Another good source of practice questions is https://lingclub.mycpanel.princeton.edu/challenge/puzzles.php .
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:11:54
Wusters: generally not in the open round, but the invitational round will ask you to write explanations for many problems
Wusters: generally not in the open round, but the invitational round will ask you to write explanations for many problems
navgup123
2020-12-10 21:12:27
Outside of NACLO, are there any other ways for high schoolers to explore linguistics?
Outside of NACLO, are there any other ways for high schoolers to explore linguistics?
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 21:12:57
yeah would there be resources to learn the linguistics concepts? like would you recommend finding books?
yeah would there be resources to learn the linguistics concepts? like would you recommend finding books?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:13:37
https://calendar.stonybrook.edu/site/iacs/event/summer-youth-camp-for-computational-linguistics-syccl/ -- This is a summer event worth considering.
https://calendar.stonybrook.edu/site/iacs/event/summer-youth-camp-for-computational-linguistics-syccl/ -- This is a summer event worth considering.
lorislevin
2020-12-10 21:13:47
PBS has Crash Course Linguistics. A podcast is All Things Linguistic.
PBS has Crash Course Linguistics. A podcast is All Things Linguistic.
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:13:49
also, i personally learned a good deal about linguistics just by reading random wikipedia articles because i found it interesting
also, i personally learned a good deal about linguistics just by reading random wikipedia articles because i found it interesting
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:13:57
so how did u guys become inspired by linguistics?
so how did u guys become inspired by linguistics?
bronzetruck2016
2020-12-10 21:14:22
What if someone happens to know that language?
What if someone happens to know that language?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:14:27
This is a terrific online introductory textbook: https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/essentialsoflinguistics/front-matter/introduction/
This is a terrific online introductory textbook: https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/essentialsoflinguistics/front-matter/introduction/
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:14:54
I got interested in linguistics through the NACLO, actually!
I got interested in linguistics through the NACLO, actually!
stronto
2020-12-10 21:15:02
@nsb14 I just sort of found languages to be cool, and decided to pursue in further.
@nsb14 I just sort of found languages to be cool, and decided to pursue in further.
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:15:25
@bronzetruck20: usually the languages tend to be quite rare, so this is unlikely to happen
@bronzetruck20: usually the languages tend to be quite rare, so this is unlikely to happen
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 21:15:34
Have you seen a common Hoopoe in person?
Have you seen a common Hoopoe in person?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:15:39
I hope to someday.
I hope to someday.
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:15:50
nsb14: my first exposure to linguistics was through conlangs, i think, which are constructed languages people invent (like toki pona, which is a constructed language with only 120 words!)
nsb14: my first exposure to linguistics was through conlangs, i think, which are constructed languages people invent (like toki pona, which is a constructed language with only 120 words!)
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:16:08
Standards for language obscurity are higher in the NACLO second round, and even higher in the IOL. In the first round, sometimes languages are common enough that some people have seen them before.
Standards for language obscurity are higher in the NACLO second round, and even higher in the IOL. In the first round, sometimes languages are common enough that some people have seen them before.
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:16:23
@snb14 I grew up in Greece where I learned English and then French and finally Russian. I just love languages.
@snb14 I grew up in Greece where I learned English and then French and finally Russian. I just love languages.
dulaman
2020-12-10 21:16:25
How much harder is IOL than NACLO generally speaking?
How much harder is IOL than NACLO generally speaking?
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:16:42
(There are ~6000 languages in the world, most spoken by only a few hundred people, so there are plenty of choices for obscure languages.)
(There are ~6000 languages in the world, most spoken by only a few hundred people, so there are plenty of choices for obscure languages.)
nova_says
2020-12-10 21:16:52
this was really fun!
this was really fun!
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 21:16:52
What COVID-19 precautions will be taken at the University Sites.
What COVID-19 precautions will be taken at the University Sites.
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:17:03
I found the IOL to be quite a bit harder (the questions are also a slightly different style).
I found the IOL to be quite a bit harder (the questions are also a slightly different style).
bronzetruck2016
2020-12-10 21:17:12
Why don't test writers just make up a language?
Why don't test writers just make up a language?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:17:12
@Joseph_Vaughn this will generally depend on the specific university site, I would suggest reaching out to the individual site hosts
@Joseph_Vaughn this will generally depend on the specific university site, I would suggest reaching out to the individual site hosts
amelia6grace
2020-12-10 21:17:17
@stronto I found this a really good experience and NACLO was a great find but I'm sad I found it so recently. I just applied to MIT to major in linguistics
@stronto I found this a really good experience and NACLO was a great find but I'm sad I found it so recently. I just applied to MIT to major in linguistics
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:17:23
Each site has its own NACLO website where you can read about their COVID-19 plans.
Each site has its own NACLO website where you can read about their COVID-19 plans.
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:17:32
dulaman: the IOL lasts 6 hours for 5 problems, and generally only a few people get very close to a perfect score. you can see all the past problems on their website, https://ioling.org
dulaman: the IOL lasts 6 hours for 5 problems, and generally only a few people get very close to a perfect score. you can see all the past problems on their website, https://ioling.org
stronto
2020-12-10 21:17:46
That's great to hear amelia6grace! Good luck, and I would love to meet more fellow linguistics majors!
That's great to hear amelia6grace! Good luck, and I would love to meet more fellow linguistics majors!
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:17:49
@bronzetruck20 We want to test what actual languages are, not what a problem-writer's idea of a language is.
@bronzetruck20 We want to test what actual languages are, not what a problem-writer's idea of a language is.
Orangecounty2
2020-12-10 21:17:51
can we reach out to you guys after this jam? if so, how?
can we reach out to you guys after this jam? if so, how?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:18:15
Feel free to shoot Pranav (stronto) a PM on AoPS!
Feel free to shoot Pranav (stronto) a PM on AoPS!
vishwathganesan
2020-12-10 21:18:41
by the way I found this cool quiz if anyone's interested: https://www.sporcle.com/games/Scuadrado/indo-european-counting-puzzle?playlist=script-click&creator=Scuadrado&pid=1R9764e98 also, it looks like the guy's made like 30 of these; there's a playlist below the table
by the way I found this cool quiz if anyone's interested: https://www.sporcle.com/games/Scuadrado/indo-european-counting-puzzle?playlist=script-click&creator=Scuadrado&pid=1R9764e98 also, it looks like the guy's made like 30 of these; there's a playlist below the table
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:18:42
Also feel free to email us at naclo21org@umich.edu
Also feel free to email us at naclo21org@umich.edu
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:19:03
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0. Check it out, too!
One of our past team members has created this video that goes over another NACLO problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4dfC9Olho0. Check it out, too!
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:19:17
do the tests get harder every year?
do the tests get harder every year?
nsalhotra
2020-12-10 21:19:24
thank you so much for doing this!! it was so interesting and i learned a lot. will there be another mathjam soon for this?
thank you so much for doing this!! it was so interesting and i learned a lot. will there be another mathjam soon for this?
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:19:24
There have been problems with constructed languages, though, but usually only well-known constructed languages like Esperanto that are interesting examples of language themselves as opposed to ones constructed for a problem.
There have been problems with constructed languages, though, but usually only well-known constructed languages like Esperanto that are interesting examples of language themselves as opposed to ones constructed for a problem.
Apollonians
2020-12-10 21:19:29
How will the at-home site work? Are we going to be provided a portal that allows us to access the competition?
How will the at-home site work? Are we going to be provided a portal that allows us to access the competition?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:19:47
@Apollonians we will be sending more information about logistics via email in January!
@Apollonians we will be sending more information about logistics via email in January!
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:19:49
Yes, we will be in touch with all At-Home participants to walk you through the process.
Yes, we will be in touch with all At-Home participants to walk you through the process.
lorislevin
2020-12-10 21:20:11
There are podcasts about linguistics and YouTube channels.
There are podcasts about linguistics and YouTube channels.
goodatusernames
2020-12-10 21:20:11
@bronzetruck i think conlangs are sometimes used in the NACLO (there's a problem with klingon iirc) but generally problems use natural languages. it's hard to invent a naturalistic language!
@bronzetruck i think conlangs are sometimes used in the NACLO (there's a problem with klingon iirc) but generally problems use natural languages. it's hard to invent a naturalistic language!
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:20:11
u guys are awesome, thanks for making this class fun
u guys are awesome, thanks for making this class fun
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:20:11
Looking at the NACLO website, it says that this is 1 of 12 science olympiads... what are the other 11 about! They could also be really cool!
Looking at the NACLO website, it says that this is 1 of 12 science olympiads... what are the other 11 about! They could also be really cool!
IRO529
2020-12-10 21:20:42
thank you so much! i really enjoyed this
thank you so much! i really enjoyed this
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 21:20:48
amazing but sad if the languages go extinct
amazing but sad if the languages go extinct
Joseph_Vaughan
2020-12-10 21:20:51
Thank you, very interesting and Helpful. Have a good day!
Thank you, very interesting and Helpful. Have a good day!
nvt23
2020-12-10 21:20:54
How long is the test?
How long is the test?
stronto
2020-12-10 21:20:59
@MasterInTheMaker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Science_Olympiad
@MasterInTheMaker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Science_Olympiad
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:20:59
The open round is 3 hours
The open round is 3 hours
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:21:04
4 hours for the invitational round
4 hours for the invitational round
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:21:17
(which have 8 and 10 problems respectively)
(which have 8 and 10 problems respectively)
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:21:18
@amuscorp Yes; a major project among linguists for the last few decades has been chronicling languages before they go extinct.
@amuscorp Yes; a major project among linguists for the last few decades has been chronicling languages before they go extinct.
bronzetruck2016
2020-12-10 21:21:21
"Long ago the 12 science Olympiads lived in harmony"
"Long ago the 12 science Olympiads lived in harmony"
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:21:35
How do we access the transcript for this thing?
How do we access the transcript for this thing?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:21:40
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.
The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.
This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
The Open Round is typically three hours long, whereas the Invitational Round is typically four hours long.
The judges have the authority to lengthen either competition in the event of unforeseen circumstances.
This year’s Invitational Round is on March 11, 2021.
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:21:42
The transcript should be on the Math Jams page on AoPS
The transcript should be on the Math Jams page on AoPS
Alleosonia
2020-12-10 21:21:55
how hard are the test problems compared to this?
how hard are the test problems compared to this?
ajpsolvingart
2020-12-10 21:22:02
This was a super fun experience and I definitely plan on participating in as much of this as I am able! Thank you for hosting it!
This was a super fun experience and I definitely plan on participating in as much of this as I am able! Thank you for hosting it!
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:22:05
Alleosonia: these are some of the previous test problems!
Alleosonia: these are some of the previous test problems!
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:22:19
The second problem we did was an example of a medium-difficulty problem on the test
The second problem we did was an example of a medium-difficulty problem on the test
senellenes
2020-12-10 21:22:31
Thanks for the fun and the info everyone.
Thanks for the fun and the info everyone.
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:22:58
xD
xD
mgher
2020-12-10 21:22:58
What other types of problems are there or is it mainly finding key words and translating
What other types of problems are there or is it mainly finding key words and translating
nova_says
2020-12-10 21:23:17
what makes the hard problems hard? do you have to guess a lot?
what makes the hard problems hard? do you have to guess a lot?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:23:33
one of the fun types of problems is what's called a "chaos and order" problem – they give you a bunch of words and their translations, but they scramble the order so that you don't know which corresponds to which
one of the fun types of problems is what's called a "chaos and order" problem – they give you a bunch of words and their translations, but they scramble the order so that you don't know which corresponds to which
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:23:40
mgher: some other types of problems include problems about writing systems, how words sound, or how to make new words out of other words -- you might be able to get a sense of them by looking through some past contests at https://nacloweb.org
mgher: some other types of problems include problems about writing systems, how words sound, or how to make new words out of other words -- you might be able to get a sense of them by looking through some past contests at https://nacloweb.org
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:23:44
NACLO has a variety of problems. Check them out here: https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php. Some are based on writing systems, others on sounds of languages, and some are computational.
NACLO has a variety of problems. Check them out here: https://www.nacloweb.org/practice.php. Some are based on writing systems, others on sounds of languages, and some are computational.
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:24:35
@nova_says: often with hard problems, either there is less information to allow you to figure things out, or the language has a "twist" that you have to guess – think of the omission of etip in the expression for 18, but harder
@nova_says: often with hard problems, either there is less information to allow you to figure things out, or the language has a "twist" that you have to guess – think of the omission of etip in the expression for 18, but harder
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:24:43
what are your guys favorite language?
what are your guys favorite language?
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:24:45
Food Tongue, a constructed language in which every word is a food.
Food Tongue, a constructed language in which every word is a food.
stronto
2020-12-10 21:24:52
Python, for the $$$
Python, for the $$$
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:24:54
nova_says: sometimes languages can behave in unintuitive ways that you might not expect, so it can be hard to figure out how the systems work -- there can also be various processes obscuring other phenomena, like sound changes making it harder to figure out how words combine
nova_says: sometimes languages can behave in unintuitive ways that you might not expect, so it can be hard to figure out how the systems work -- there can also be various processes obscuring other phenomena, like sound changes making it harder to figure out how words combine
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:25:08
nsb14: czech! the ř sound is the best
nsb14: czech! the ř sound is the best
eye22
2020-12-10 21:25:54
can you briefly discuss how you enjoy studying cs and linguistics in college?
can you briefly discuss how you enjoy studying cs and linguistics in college?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:26:17
Linguistics and cs is a great combination! There's actually a lot of overlap between the two fields
Linguistics and cs is a great combination! There's actually a lot of overlap between the two fields
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:26:47
For example, any kind of problem that involves language and technology needs expertise from both linguistics and cs
For example, any kind of problem that involves language and technology needs expertise from both linguistics and cs
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:26:53
mostly just taking classes that i've enjoyed -- some of my linguistics classes have been surprisingly similar to just doing naclo-style puzzles, so they were very fun
mostly just taking classes that i've enjoyed -- some of my linguistics classes have been surprisingly similar to just doing naclo-style puzzles, so they were very fun
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:27:56
@stronto its been so long since i saw u, what up bro!
@stronto its been so long since i saw u, what up bro!
bronzetruck2016
2020-12-10 21:27:56
How do you get the letters from other languages on you keyboard?
How do you get the letters from other languages on you keyboard?
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:27:59
copy and paste!
copy and paste!
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:28:00
Copy and past from wikipedia
Copy and past from wikipedia
stronto
2020-12-10 21:28:18
@nsb14 The sky is technically up
@nsb14 The sky is technically up
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:28:19
compose key on linux
compose key on linux
stronto
2020-12-10 21:28:37
\includepackage{tipa} for me
\includepackage{tipa} for me
msinghal
2020-12-10 21:28:38
when I took a linguistics class I found software that mapped my keyboard to IPA characters
when I took a linguistics class I found software that mapped my keyboard to IPA characters
Kamior
2020-12-10 21:28:42
I get a lot of them by downloading Google Desktop, which is long-discontinued, and using key combinations like alt-' e in its sidebar.
I get a lot of them by downloading Google Desktop, which is long-discontinued, and using key combinations like alt-' e in its sidebar.
Cuber999
2020-12-10 21:29:22
What time do at-home contestants write the exam at?
What time do at-home contestants write the exam at?
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:29:30
This will depend on your time zone
This will depend on your time zone
nsb14
2020-12-10 21:29:31
nice talking to new people, especially older than me, I hope u guys have a great weekend!
nice talking to new people, especially older than me, I hope u guys have a great weekend!
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:29:31
ok thanks!
ok thanks!
rileywkong
2020-12-10 21:29:31
there's keyman desktop which has an ipa package
there's keyman desktop which has an ipa package
kevliang
2020-12-10 21:29:42
You can find more information in the handbook at the NACLO website (nacloweb.org)
You can find more information in the handbook at the NACLO website (nacloweb.org)
mgher
2020-12-10 21:29:46
What jobs can you get with a linguistics major?
What jobs can you get with a linguistics major?
Aleka_NACLO
2020-12-10 21:31:30
Our linguistics majors move on to become researchers, teachers, editors, professors, computational linguists, translators, and so on.
Our linguistics majors move on to become researchers, teachers, editors, professors, computational linguists, translators, and so on.
devenware
2020-12-10 21:31:48
Alright, I think that's a wrap everyone! Thank you for being here.
Alright, I think that's a wrap everyone! Thank you for being here.
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:32:06
Thank you so much!
Thank you so much!
nova_says
2020-12-10 21:32:06
Thank you! This was so fun
Thank you! This was so fun
mgher
2020-12-10 21:32:06
thank you!
thank you!
devenware
2020-12-10 21:32:09
Thanks again to all our guests for spending time with us tonight to tell us all about the NACLO, and thank you all for coming to the Math Jam!
Thanks again to all our guests for spending time with us tonight to tell us all about the NACLO, and thank you all for coming to the Math Jam!
MasterInTheMaking
2020-12-10 21:32:16
You guys are the best! AOPS is my favorite thing ever
You guys are the best! AOPS is my favorite thing ever
devenware
2020-12-10 21:32:32
If you joined us late (or even if you didn't), a complete transcript of the discussion will be available shortly on our Math Jam Transcripts page at: https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/mathjams-transcripts.php
If you joined us late (or even if you didn't), a complete transcript of the discussion will be available shortly on our Math Jam Transcripts page at: https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/mathjams-transcripts.php
devenware
2020-12-10 21:32:42
And one of the NACLO people can post a link to NACLO to end the jam.
And one of the NACLO people can post a link to NACLO to end the jam.
tckmn
2020-12-10 21:33:14
https://nacloweb.org
https://nacloweb.org
devenware
2020-12-10 21:33:24
Great! I am closing down the session now. Thanks again everyone!
Great! I am closing down the session now. Thanks again everyone!
mgher
2020-12-10 21:33:34
<3
<3
stronto
2020-12-10 21:33:40
amuscorp.
2020-12-10 21:33:50
This session was so valuable!! I'm feeling a lot more confident and excited about the competition! I really don't want to leave, but thank you all for the amazing experience!
This session was so valuable!! I'm feeling a lot more confident and excited about the competition! I really don't want to leave, but thank you all for the amazing experience!
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