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k a March Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Mar 2, 2025
March is the month for State MATHCOUNTS competitions! Kudos to everyone who participated in their local chapter competitions and best of luck to all going to State! Join us on March 11th for a Math Jam devoted to our favorite Chapter competition problems! Are you interested in training for MATHCOUNTS? Be sure to check out our AMC 8/MATHCOUNTS Basics and Advanced courses.

Are you ready to level up with Olympiad training? Registration is open with early bird pricing available for our WOOT programs: MathWOOT (Levels 1 and 2), CodeWOOT, PhysicsWOOT, and ChemWOOT. What is WOOT? WOOT stands for Worldwide Online Olympiad Training and is a 7-month high school math Olympiad preparation and testing program that brings together many of the best students from around the world to learn Olympiad problem solving skills. Classes begin in September!

Do you have plans this summer? There are so many options to fit your schedule and goals whether attending a summer camp or taking online classes, it can be a great break from the routine of the school year. Check out our summer courses at AoPS Online, or if you want a math or language arts class that doesn’t have homework, but is an enriching summer experience, our AoPS Virtual Campus summer camps may be just the ticket! We are expanding our locations for our AoPS Academies across the country with 15 locations so far and new campuses opening in Saratoga CA, Johns Creek GA, and the Upper West Side NY. Check out this page for summer camp information.

Be sure to mark your calendars for the following events:
[list][*]March 5th (Wednesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, HCSSiM Math Jam 2025. Amber Verser, Assistant Director of the Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics, will host an information session about HCSSiM, a summer program for high school students.
[*]March 6th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar on Math Competitions from elementary through high school. Join us for an enlightening session that demystifies the world of math competitions and helps you make informed decisions about your contest journey.
[*]March 11th (Tuesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, 2025 MATHCOUNTS Chapter Discussion MATH JAM. AoPS instructors will discuss some of their favorite problems from the MATHCOUNTS Chapter Competition. All are welcome!
[*]March 13th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar about Summer Camps at the Virtual Campus. Transform your summer into an unforgettable learning adventure! From elementary through high school, we offer dynamic summer camps featuring topics in mathematics, language arts, and competition preparation - all designed to fit your schedule and ignite your passion for learning.[/list]
Our full course list for upcoming classes is below:
All classes run 7:30pm-8:45pm ET/4:30pm - 5:45pm PT unless otherwise noted.

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Mon, Tue, Wed & Thurs, Jun 23 - Jun 26 (meets every day of the week!)
0 replies
jlacosta
Mar 2, 2025
0 replies
k i Peer-to-Peer Programs Forum
jwelsh   157
N Dec 11, 2023 by cw357
Many of our AoPS Community members share their knowledge with their peers in a variety of ways, ranging from creating mock contests to creating real contests to writing handouts to hosting sessions as part of our partnership with schoolhouse.world.

To facilitate students in these efforts, we have created a new Peer-to-Peer Programs forum. With the creation of this forum, we are starting a new process for those of you who want to advertise your efforts. These advertisements and ensuing discussions have been cluttering up some of the forums that were meant for other purposes, so we’re gathering these topics in one place. This also allows students to find new peer-to-peer learning opportunities without having to poke around all the other forums.

To announce your program, or to invite others to work with you on it, here’s what to do:

1) Post a new topic in the Peer-to-Peer Programs forum. This will be the discussion thread for your program.

2) Post a single brief post in this thread that links the discussion thread of your program in the Peer-to-Peer Programs forum.

Please note that we’ll move or delete any future advertisement posts that are outside the Peer-to-Peer Programs forum, as well as any posts in this topic that are not brief announcements of new opportunities. In particular, this topic should not be used to discuss specific programs; those discussions should occur in topics in the Peer-to-Peer Programs forum.

Your post in this thread should have what you're sharing (class, session, tutoring, handout, math or coding game/other program) and a link to the thread in the Peer-to-Peer Programs forum, which should have more information (like where to find what you're sharing).
157 replies
jwelsh
Mar 15, 2021
cw357
Dec 11, 2023
k i C&P posting recs by mods
v_Enhance   0
Jun 12, 2020
The purpose of this post is to lay out a few suggestions about what kind of posts work well for the C&P forum. Except in a few cases these are mostly meant to be "suggestions based on historical trends" rather than firm hard rules; we may eventually replace this with an actual list of firm rules but that requires admin approval :) That said, if you post something in the "discouraged" category, you should not be totally surprised if it gets locked; they are discouraged exactly because past experience shows they tend to go badly.
-----------------------------
1. Program discussion: Allowed
If you have questions about specific camps or programs (e.g. which classes are good at X camp?), these questions fit well here. Many camps/programs have specific sub-forums too but we understand a lot of them are not active.
-----------------------------
2. Results discussion: Allowed
You can make threads about e.g. how you did on contests (including AMC), though on AMC day when there is a lot of discussion. Moderators and administrators may do a lot of thread-merging / forum-wrangling to keep things in one place.
-----------------------------
3. Reposting solutions or questions to past AMC/AIME/USAMO problems: Allowed
This forum contains a post for nearly every problem from AMC8, AMC10, AMC12, AIME, USAJMO, USAMO (and these links give you an index of all these posts). It is always permitted to post a full solution to any problem in its own thread (linked above), regardless of how old the problem is, and even if this solution is similar to one that has already been posted. We encourage this type of posting because it is helpful for the user to explain their solution in full to an audience, and for future users who want to see multiple approaches to a problem or even just the frequency distribution of common approaches. We do ask for some explanation; if you just post "the answer is (B); ez" then you are not adding anything useful.

You are also encouraged to post questions about a specific problem in the specific thread for that problem, or about previous user's solutions. It's almost always better to use the existing thread than to start a new one, to keep all the discussion in one place easily searchable for future visitors.
-----------------------------
4. Advice posts: Allowed, but read below first
You can use this forum to ask for advice about how to prepare for math competitions in general. But you should be aware that this question has been asked many many times. Before making a post, you are encouraged to look at the following:
[list]
[*] Stop looking for the right training: A generic post about advice that keeps getting stickied :)
[*] There is an enormous list of links on the Wiki of books / problems / etc for all levels.
[/list]
When you do post, we really encourage you to be as specific as possible in your question. Tell us about your background, what you've tried already, etc.

Actually, the absolute best way to get a helpful response is to take a few examples of problems that you tried to solve but couldn't, and explain what you tried on them / why you couldn't solve them. Here is a great example of a specific question.
-----------------------------
5. Publicity: use P2P forum instead
See https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c5h2489297_peertopeer_programs_forum.
Some exceptions have been allowed in the past, but these require approval from administrators. (I am not totally sure what the criteria is. I am not an administrator.)
-----------------------------
6. Mock contests: use Mock Contests forum instead
Mock contests should be posted in the dedicated forum instead:
https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c594864_aops_mock_contests
-----------------------------
7. AMC procedural questions: suggest to contact the AMC HQ instead
If you have a question like "how do I submit a change of venue form for the AIME" or "why is my name not on the qualifiers list even though I have a 300 index", you would be better off calling or emailing the AMC program to ask, they are the ones who can help you :)
-----------------------------
8. Discussion of random math problems: suggest to use MSM/HSM/HSO instead
If you are discussing a specific math problem that isn't from the AMC/AIME/USAMO, it's better to post these in Middle School Math, High School Math, High School Olympiads instead.
-----------------------------
9. Politics: suggest to use Round Table instead
There are important conversations to be had about things like gender diversity in math contests, etc., for sure. However, from experience we think that C&P is historically not a good place to have these conversations, as they go off the rails very quickly. We encourage you to use the Round Table instead, where it is much more clear that all posts need to be serious.
-----------------------------
10. MAA complaints: discouraged
We don't want to pretend that the MAA is perfect or that we agree with everything they do. However, we chose to discourage this sort of behavior because in practice most of the comments we see are not useful and some are frankly offensive.
[list] [*] If you just want to blow off steam, do it on your blog instead.
[*] When you have criticism, it should be reasoned, well-thought and constructive. What we mean by this is, for example, when the AOIME was announced, there was great outrage about potential cheating. Well, do you really think that this is something the organizers didn't think about too? Simply posting that "people will cheat and steal my USAMOO qualification, the MAA are idiots!" is not helpful as it is not bringing any new information to the table.
[*] Even if you do have reasoned, well-thought, constructive criticism, we think it is actually better to email it the MAA instead, rather than post it here. Experience shows that even polite, well-meaning suggestions posted in C&P are often derailed by less mature users who insist on complaining about everything.
[/list]
-----------------------------
11. Memes and joke posts: discouraged
It's fine to make jokes or lighthearted posts every so often. But it should be done with discretion. Ideally, jokes should be done within a longer post that has other content. For example, in my response to one user's question about olympiad combinatorics, I used a silly picture of Sogiita Gunha, but it was done within a context of a much longer post where it was meant to actually make a point.

On the other hand, there are many threads which consist largely of posts whose only content is an attached meme with the word "MAA" in it. When done in excess like this, the jokes reflect poorly on the community, so we explicitly discourage them.
-----------------------------
12. Questions that no one can answer: discouraged
Examples of this: "will MIT ask for AOIME scores?", "what will the AIME 2021 cutoffs be (asked in 2020)", etc. Basically, if you ask a question on this forum, it's better if the question is something that a user can plausibly answer :)
-----------------------------
13. Blind speculation: discouraged
Along these lines, if you do see a question that you don't have an answer to, we discourage "blindly guessing" as it leads to spreading of baseless rumors. For example, if you see some user posting "why are there fewer qualifiers than usual this year?", you should not reply "the MAA must have been worried about online cheating so they took fewer people!!". Was sich überhaupt sagen lässt, lässt sich klar sagen; und wovon man nicht reden kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
-----------------------------
14. Discussion of cheating: strongly discouraged
If you have evidence or reasonable suspicion of cheating, please report this to your Competition Manager or to the AMC HQ; these forums cannot help you.
Otherwise, please avoid public discussion of cheating. That is: no discussion of methods of cheating, no speculation about how cheating affects cutoffs, and so on --- it is not helpful to anyone, and it creates a sour atmosphere. A longer explanation is given in Seriously, please stop discussing how to cheat.
-----------------------------
15. Cutoff jokes: never allowed
Whenever the cutoffs for any major contest are released, it is very obvious when they are official. In the past, this has been achieved by the numbers being posted on the official AMC website (here) or through a post from the AMCDirector account.

You must never post fake cutoffs, even as a joke. You should also refrain from posting cutoffs that you've heard of via email, etc., because it is better to wait for the obvious official announcement. A longer explanation is given in A Treatise on Cutoff Trolling.
-----------------------------
16. Meanness: never allowed
Being mean is worse than being immature and unproductive. If another user does something which you think is inappropriate, use the Report button to bring the post to moderator attention, or if you really must reply, do so in a way that is tactful and constructive rather than inflammatory.
-----------------------------

Finally, we remind you all to sit back and enjoy the problems. :D

-----------------------------
(EDIT 2024-09-13: AoPS has asked to me to add the following item.)

Advertising paid program or service: never allowed

Per the AoPS Terms of Service (rule 5h), general advertisements are not allowed.

While we do allow advertisements of official contests (at the MAA and MATHCOUNTS level) and those run by college students with at least one successful year, any and all advertisements of a paid service or program is not allowed and will be deleted.
0 replies
v_Enhance
Jun 12, 2020
0 replies
k i Stop looking for the "right" training
v_Enhance   50
N Oct 16, 2017 by blawho12
Source: Contest advice
EDIT 2019-02-01: https://blog.evanchen.cc/2019/01/31/math-contest-platitudes-v3/ is the updated version of this.

EDIT 2021-06-09: see also https://web.evanchen.cc/faq-contest.html.

Original 2013 post
50 replies
v_Enhance
Feb 15, 2013
blawho12
Oct 16, 2017
USAMO 1983 Problem 2 - Roots of Quintic
Binomial-theorem   28
N 14 minutes ago by Marcus_Zhang
Source: USAMO 1983 Problem 2
Prove that the roots of\[x^5 + ax^4 + bx^3 + cx^2 + dx + e = 0\] cannot all be real if $2a^2 < 5b$.
28 replies
Binomial-theorem
Aug 16, 2011
Marcus_Zhang
14 minutes ago
Bash geo
oVlad   15
N 16 minutes ago by Davud29_09
Source: BMO Shortlist 2022, G6 & Romanian TST 2022, Day 3 P2
Let $ABC$ be a triangle with $AB < AC$ and let $D{}$ be the other intersection point of the angle bisector of $\angle A$ with the circumcircle of the triangle $ABC$. Let $E{}$ and $F{}$ be points on the sides $AB$ and $AC$ respectively, such that $AE = AF$ and let $P{}$ be the point of intersection of $AD$ and $EF$. Let $M{}$ be the midpoint of $BC{}$. Prove that $AM$ and the circumcircles of the triangles $AEF$ and $PMD$ pass through a common point.
15 replies
oVlad
May 13, 2023
Davud29_09
16 minutes ago
Find the period
Anto0110   0
17 minutes ago
Let $a_1, a_2, ..., a_k, ...$ be a sequence that consists of an initial block of $p$ positive distinct integers that then repeat periodically. This means that $\{a_1, a_2, \dots, a_p\}$ are $p$ distinct positive integers and $a_{n+p}=a_n$ for every positive integer $n$. The terms of the sequence are not known and the goal is to find the period $p$. To do this, at each move it possible to reveal the value of a term of the sequence at your choice.
If $p$ is one of the first $k$ prime numbers, find for which values of $k$ there exist a strategy that allows to find $p$ revealing at most $8$ terms of the sequence.
0 replies
Anto0110
17 minutes ago
0 replies
hcssim application question
enya_yurself   3
N 24 minutes ago by dppvlit123
do they send the Interesting Test to everyone who applied or do they read the friendly letter first and only send to the kids they like?
3 replies
+2 w
enya_yurself
Yesterday at 11:13 PM
dppvlit123
24 minutes ago
They mixed up USAJMO and AIME I guess
Math4Life7   55
N 26 minutes ago by Ilikeminecraft
Source: USAJMO 2024/1
Let $ABCD$ be a cyclic quadrilateral with $AB = 7$ and $CD = 8$. Point $P$ and $Q$ are selected on segment $AB$ such that $AP = BQ = 3$. Points $R$ and $S$ are selected on segment $CD$ such that $CR = DS = 2$. Prove that $PQRS$ is a cyclic quadrilateral.

Proposed by Evan O'Dorney
55 replies
Math4Life7
Mar 20, 2024
Ilikeminecraft
26 minutes ago
circle geometry showing perpendicularity
Kyj9981   2
N 28 minutes ago by Double07
Two circles $\omega_1$ and $\omega_2$ intersect at points $A$ and $B$. A line through $B$ intersects $\omega_1$ and $\omega_2$ at points $C$ and $D$, respectively. Line $AD$ intersects $\omega_1$ at point $E \neq A$, and line $AC$ intersects $\omega_2$ at point $F \neq A$. If $O$ is the circumcenter of $\triangle AEF$, prove that $OB \perp CD$.
2 replies
Kyj9981
Today at 11:53 AM
Double07
28 minutes ago
The return of American geo
brianzjk   78
N 31 minutes ago by Ilikeminecraft
Source: USAJMO 2023/6
Isosceles triangle $ABC$, with $AB=AC$, is inscribed in circle $\omega$. Let $D$ be an arbitrary point inside $BC$ such that $BD\neq DC$. Ray $AD$ intersects $\omega$ again at $E$ (other than $A$). Point $F$ (other than $E$) is chosen on $\omega$ such that $\angle DFE = 90^\circ$. Line $FE$ intersects rays $AB$ and $AC$ at points $X$ and $Y$, respectively. Prove that $\angle XDE = \angle EDY$.

Proposed by Anton Trygub
78 replies
1 viewing
brianzjk
Mar 23, 2023
Ilikeminecraft
31 minutes ago
[Registration Open] Mustang Math Tournament 2025
MustangMathTournament   36
N an hour ago by wuwang2002
Mustang Math is excited to announce that registration for our annual tournament, MMT 2025, is open! This year, we are bringing our tournament to 9 in-person locations, as well as online!

Locations include: Colorado, Norcal, Socal, Georgia, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Nevada, Washington, and online. For registration and more information, check out https://mustangmath.com/competitions/mmt-2025.

MMT 2025 is a math tournament run by a group of 150+ mathematically experienced high school and college students who are dedicated to providing a high-quality and enjoyable contest for middle school students. Our tournament centers around teamwork and collaboration, incentivizing students to work with their teams not only to navigate the challenging and interesting problems of the tournament but also to develop strategies to master the unique rounds. This includes a logic puzzle round, a strategy-filled hexes round, a race-like gallop round, and our trademark ‘Mystery Mare’ round!

Awards:
[list]
[*] Medals for the top teams
[*] Shirts, pins, stickers and certificates for all participants
[*] Additional awards provided by our wonderful sponsors!
[/list]

We are also holding a free MMT prep seminar from 3/15-3/16 to help students prepare for the upcoming tournament. Join the Google Classroom! https://classroom.google.com/c/NzQ5NDUyNDY2NjM1?cjc=7sogth4
36 replies
MustangMathTournament
Mar 8, 2025
wuwang2002
an hour ago
AMC 12 Question
sadas123   6
N an hour ago by gavinhaominwang
Hello! I am a 6th grader this year about to become 7th grade next year. I was wondering if I should take the AMC 12 next year because I think I am ready for it, I was thinking to do AMC 10 A and AMC 12 B, do you think it is a good idea? Here are the courses I finished and now I am working on:

Finished:
1. Intro Algebra
2. Intro Number Theory
3. Intro Counting and Probability
4. Volume 1

Working on:
1. Intermdiate Counting and Probability
2. Three Year Mathcounts Marathon

Upcoming:
1. Intro Geomtery (Next Month)
2. Intro to Alg (May)
3. Pre-calc (Summer)
4. Volume 2???

Stats for AMC 12 (Mocked):

1. AMC 12 A 2024: 100.5
2. AMC 12 B 2024: 105
3. AMC 12 A 2023: 96

The reason why I sometimes I get 100+ is because sometimes I know how to do the first step of the problem but the last step I have to kind of infrence but still i know how to do the problem.
6 replies
sadas123
3 hours ago
gavinhaominwang
an hour ago
Apply for Team USA at the International Math Competition (IMC)!
peace09   54
N 2 hours ago by profhong
The International Math Competition (IMC) is essentially the elementary and middle school equivalent of the IMO, with individual and team rounds featuring both short-answer and proof-based problems. See past problems here.

Team USA is looking for 6th graders and below with AIME qualification or AMC 8 DHR (or equivalent), and for 9th graders and below with JMO or Mathcounts Nationals qualification. If you think you meet said criteria, fill out the initial form here.

Here are a couple quick links for further information:
[list=disc]
[*] Dr. Tao Hong's website, which contains a detailed recap of the 2024 competition (and previous years'), as well as Team USA's historical results. (You may recognize a couple names... @channing421 @vrondoS et al.: back me up here :P)
[*] My journal, which gives an insider's perspective on the camp :ninja:
[/list]
54 replies
peace09
Aug 13, 2024
profhong
2 hours ago
AIME score for college apps
Happyllamaalways   85
N 4 hours ago by MC_ADe
What good colleges do I have a chance of getting into with an 11 on AIME? (Any chances for Princeton)

Also idk if this has weight but I had the highest AIME score in my school.
85 replies
Happyllamaalways
Mar 13, 2025
MC_ADe
4 hours ago
AMC 10.........
BAM10   11
N 4 hours ago by Andyluo
I'm in 8th grade and have never taken the AMC 10. I am currently in alg2. I have scored 20 on AMC 8 this year and 34 on the chapter math counts last year. Can I qualify for AIME. Also what should I practice AMC 10 next year?
11 replies
BAM10
Mar 2, 2025
Andyluo
4 hours ago
rows are DERANGED and a SOCOURGE to usajmo .
GrantStar   27
N 4 hours ago by EGMO
Source: USAJMO 2024/4
Let $n \geq 3$ be an integer. Rowan and Colin play a game on an $n \times n$ grid of squares, where each square is colored either red or blue. Rowan is allowed to permute the rows of the grid and Colin is allowed to permute the columns. A grid coloring is orderly if: [list] [*]no matter how Rowan permutes the rows of the coloring, Colin can then permute the columns to restore the original grid coloring; and [*]no matter how Colin permutes the columns of the coloring, Rowan can then permute the rows to restore the original grid coloring. [/list] In terms of $n$, how many orderly colorings are there?

Proposed by Alec Sun
27 replies
GrantStar
Mar 21, 2024
EGMO
4 hours ago
10B Score Thread
BS2012   134
N 5 hours ago by pingpongmerrily
$\begin{tabular}{c|c|c|c|c}Username & Grade & 10B \\ \hline
BS2012 & 9 & 144  \\
\end{tabular}$
EDIT: I found out i didn't silly #19, so i got 144
134 replies
BS2012
Nov 13, 2024
pingpongmerrily
5 hours ago
Polynomials and powers
rmtf1111   26
N Today at 7:24 AM by ihategeo_1969
Source: RMM 2018 Day 1 Problem 2
Determine whether there exist non-constant polynomials $P(x)$ and $Q(x)$ with real coefficients satisfying
$$P(x)^{10}+P(x)^9 = Q(x)^{21}+Q(x)^{20}.$$
26 replies
rmtf1111
Feb 24, 2018
ihategeo_1969
Today at 7:24 AM
Polynomials and powers
G H J
G H BBookmark kLocked kLocked NReply
Source: RMM 2018 Day 1 Problem 2
The post below has been deleted. Click to close.
This post has been deleted. Click here to see post.
rmtf1111
698 posts
#1 • 12 Y
Y by Davi-8191, Snakes, microsoft_office_word, rkm0959, Mathuzb, Euiseu, opptoinfinity, meet18, IAmTheHazard, Rounak_iitr, Adventure10, Mango247
Determine whether there exist non-constant polynomials $P(x)$ and $Q(x)$ with real coefficients satisfying
$$P(x)^{10}+P(x)^9 = Q(x)^{21}+Q(x)^{20}.$$
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Hamel
392 posts
#3 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
That's too easy I think.
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Lamp909
98 posts
#4 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
Use first derivative
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rkm0959
1721 posts
#5 • 10 Y
Y by PARISsaintGERMAIN, Supercali, BobaFett101, hellomath010118, Nathanisme, trololo23, guptaamitu1, Adventure10, Mango247, Manteca
Denote $S_{f}$ as the solution set of $f(x)=0$. From the statement we know that $S_P \cup S_{P+1} = S_Q \cup S_{Q+1}$.
Since $10 \cdot \text{deg} P = 21 \cdot \text{deg} Q$, we have $\text{deg} P = 21x$ and $\text{deg} Q = 10x$.
Since $|S_{f}| \le \text{deg} f$ for polynomials $f$, we get that $|S_P| + |S_{P+1}| = |S_Q| + |S_{Q+1}| \le 20x$.

Now, here's a key lemma that solves the problem.

Lemma. For nonconstant polynomial $P$, $|S_P| + |S_{P+1}| \ge \text{deg} P +1$.

Proof of Lemma. Denote $P(x) = \prod_{i=1}^n (x-r_i)^{c_i}$ and $P(x)+1 = \prod_{i=1}^m (x-r_i')^{c_i'}$.
Clearly $r_i$ and $r'_i$ are pairwise distinct. Now look at $P'(x)$. This must have $r_i$ as a root with multiplicity $c_i-1$, and $r_i'$ as a root with multiplicity $c_i'-1$. This implies that $$ \text{deg} P-1 = \text{deg} P' \ge \sum_{i=1}^n (c_i-1) + \sum_{i=1}^m (c_i'-1) = 2 \cdot \text{deg} P - |S_P| - |S_{P+1}| $$Rearranging gives the desired lemma.

Now we have $20x \ge |S_P| + |S_{P+1}| \ge \text{deg} P +1 =21x+1$, an obvious contradiction.
This post has been edited 7 times. Last edited by rkm0959, Feb 27, 2018, 1:54 PM
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v_Enhance
6858 posts
#6 • 23 Y
Y by rkm0959, Ankoganit, AngleChasingXD, xdiegolazarox, Snakes, Mathuzb, Sskkrr, shon804, mijail, v4913, pcleong, ILOVEMYFAMILY, HamstPan38825, Kingsbane2139, denistusk, sabkx, kamatadu, Rounak_iitr, IAmTheHazard, Adventure10, Mango247, bhan2025, MS_asdfgzxcvb
The answer is no; here is the official solution. Assume $(P,Q)$ work, so $\deg P = 21n$ and $\deg Q = 10n$ for some $n$. Then we have: \begin{align*} 	1 &= \gcd(P,10P+9) = \gcd(P+1, 10P+9) \\ 	\implies 1 &= \gcd\left( P^{10} + P^9, 10P+9 \right) = \gcd\left( Q^{21} + Q^{20}, 10P+9 \right) \\ 	\implies 1 &= \gcd(Q, 10P+9). \end{align*}
Now, we take a derivative: \[ P' \cdot P^8 \cdot \left( 10P + 9 \right) 	= Q' \cdot Q^{19} \cdot \left( 21Q + 20 \right) \neq 0. \]Thus $10P+9$ should divide $Q' \cdot (21Q+20)$ but \[ \deg(10P+9) = 21n > 20n-1 = \deg(Q' \cdot (21Q+20)). \]
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by v_Enhance, Feb 25, 2018, 8:33 AM
Reason: clarify this is not mine
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WizardMath
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#7 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
For brevity, I will denote $P(x) = P, Q(x) =Q$.
Note that the set of roots of $P$ is disjoint with that of $P+1$. Similarly for $Q$. Note that $P' = (P+1)'$, so the number of roots of $P'$, counting multiplicity must not be less than the sum of multiplicities of the roots of $P, P+1$ decreased by 1, so the number of roots of $P$ and $P+1$ is at least $\text{deg} P + 1$. But the number of roots of $P^{9} (P+1)$ doesn't exceed $\frac{20}{21} \deg P $, which is a contradiction.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by WizardMath, Feb 24, 2018, 1:33 PM
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kjy1102
37 posts
#8 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
Using derivative in polynomial has once presented https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c6h1352166p7389123
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by kjy1102, Feb 24, 2018, 2:07 PM
Reason: d
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va2010
1276 posts
#9 • 5 Y
Y by Ankoganit, rmtf1111, Kingsbane2139, Adventure10, Mango247
If $a = X^{10} + X^9$ and $c = X^{21} + X^{20}$, the equation rewrites as $a \cdot p = c \cdot q$. It is clear that the polynomial $a$ is indecomposable. Then according to Corollary 2.18 in http://dept.math.lsa.umich.edu/~zieve/papers/peter.pdf (which is proven using monodromy groups) there exists a linear polynomial $\ell$ such that $\ell \cdot a = T_{10}$ or $\ell \cdot a = X^{10}$, where $T_{10}$ is the $10$th Chebyshev polynomial. The first case is impossible since $T_{10}$ contains a nontrivial coefficient of $x^8$ but not of $x^9$, and the second case is impossible since $a(-1) = a(0)$ but $(-1)^{10} \neq 0^{10}$.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by va2010, Feb 24, 2018, 2:23 PM
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huricane
670 posts
#10 • 2 Y
Y by GGPiku, Adventure10
I think I have an elementary solution for the following more general problem(although I'm not 100% sure)

Let $k>l>2$ be two coprime integers. Prove that there are no non-constant polynomials $P(x)$ and $Q(x)$ with real coefficients such that $$P^{k+1}+P^k=Q^{l+1}+Q^l.$$
Even if this general problem is not true it would be interesting to find for which pairs $(k,l)$ the problem is true.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by huricane, Feb 24, 2018, 6:33 PM
Reason: Edit
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WizardMath
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#11 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
huricane wrote:
Even if this general problem is not true it would be interesting to find for which pairs $(k,l)$ the problem is true.

The official solution, for instance, proves this for $k \ge 1, l \ge 2k+1$.
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v_Enhance
6858 posts
#12 • 12 Y
Y by rkm0959, lminsl, Ankoganit, MNJ2357, RudraRockstar, v4913, tigerzhang, HamstPan38825, sabkx, Adventure10, Mango247, Kingsbane2139
Hamel wrote:
That's too easy I think.

Eh, no. ;)
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huricane
670 posts
#13 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
WizardMath wrote:
huricane wrote:
Even if this general problem is not true it would be interesting to find for which pairs $(k,l)$ the problem is true.

The official solution, for instance, proves this for $k \ge 1, l \ge 2k+1$.

Yeah but their method wouldn't work for the general problem, since they use degree bounds.
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Hamel
392 posts
#14 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
v_Enhance wrote:
Hamel wrote:
That's too easy I think.

Eh, no. ;)

Yeah right. Were it to give with distinct roots it would be easier.
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R8450932
58 posts
#15 • 3 Y
Y by Kingsbane2139, Adventure10, Mango247
İs it famous method to use derivative in polynomials?
So anyone who have seen USA TST 2017 problem could easily do this.
Does anyone know any handout/book about usage of derivative in polynomials or some problems about that topic other than USA TST and this one?
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nikolapavlovic
1246 posts
#16 • 9 Y
Y by R8450932, huricane, rmtf1111, nmd27082001, Kayak, gvole, sabkx, Adventure10, Mango247
The idea isn't really that uncommon,i mean any time you want some further information about roots or just kill the constant it seems like the right thing to do.For much older reference check this (problem 9)
Apparently Putnam 1957 B7 wrote:
Problem let $S(P)$ be the set of the roots of $P$ not counting multiplicity.Is it possible that $S(P)\equiv S(Q)$ and $S(P+1)\equiv S(Q+1)$ ?

Or even a more well know result Mason's theorem ,where the proof essentially goes along the lines of writing $\tfrac{a}{c}+\tfrac{b}{c}=1$ and differentiating to kill the one on the LHS.
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by nikolapavlovic, Feb 25, 2018, 10:20 AM
Reason: added the link
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achen29
561 posts
#18 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
Lamp909 wrote:
Use first derivative

Isn't calculus "loathed" in olympiads.? I mean can you clarify when can one use or not use calculus to solve a problem?
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lminsl
543 posts
#21 • 7 Y
Y by huricane, GGPiku, rmtf1111, rkm0959, MNJ2357, Adventure10, Mango247
Edit: Wrong Sol :(

Solution
This post has been edited 11 times. Last edited by lminsl, Mar 10, 2019, 4:43 AM
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Géza Kós
111 posts
#22 • 3 Y
Y by WolfusA, opptoinfinity, Adventure10
The key statement $|S_P|+|S_{P+1}|\ge \deg P+1$ is same as IMC 2000 day 2, prob 3.
See http://imc-math.org.uk/imc2000/prob_sol2.pdf
The author was Marianna Csörnyei.
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by Géza Kós, Mar 1, 2018, 2:01 PM
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math_pi_rate
1218 posts
#23 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
Here's my solution: I invoke notation from post #5. Then we have $|S_P| + |S_{P+1}| = |S_Q| + |S_{Q+1}| \le 20x$, where $\text{deg} (P) = 21x$ and $\text{deg} (Q) = 10x$ as shown in rkm0959's solution. Now, we look at the Lemma given below (it is basically a generalization of the Lemma in post #5), after which we can finish in a similar fashion as in rkm0959's solution.

LEMMA: Let $F \in \mathbb{R}[x]$ be a non-constant real valued polynomial of degree $n$ $(n \geq 1)$. Consider the $m+1$ distinct real numbers $r_1,r_2, \dots ,r_{m+1}$ where $m \in \mathbb{N}$. Then the total number of complex solutions to the equation $F(x)=r_i$ for all $i \in \{1,2, \dots ,m+1\}$ is at least $mn+1$. (The previous Lemma follows on taking $m=1$ and $r_1=0,r_2=-1$)

Proof of Lemma We always use $i$ to denote the integers from $1$ to $m+1$. First consider a general polynomial $A \in \mathbb{R}[x]$. Suppose that $\gcd(A,A')$ has degree $s$, where $A'$ is the first derivative of $A$. Then there exist $s$ roots of $A$ (not necessarily distinct) which are roots of $A'$ also, which means that the remaining roots of $A$ are distinct and correspond to the elements of $S_A$ (Just use the fact that roots of $A$ with multiplicity $a$ have multiplicity $a-1$ in $A'$). So we have $|S_A|=\text{deg}(A)-s$. Return to our Lemma. Letting $X$ denote the total number of solutions to the given equations, and using the fact that $(F-r_i)'=F'$, we have $$X=\sum_{i=1}^{m+1} n-\text{deg} (\gcd(F-r_i,F'))=(m+1)n-\sum_{i=1}^{m+1} \text{deg}(\gcd(F-r_i,F'))$$Then we wish to show that $X \geq mn+1$, which is equivalent to showing that $$(m+1)n-\sum_{i=1}^{m+1} \text{deg}(\gcd(F-r_i,F')) \geq mn+1 \Leftrightarrow \sum_{i=1}^{m+1} \text{deg}(\gcd(F-r_i,F')) \leq n-1 \text{ } \forall m \in \mathbb{N}$$Consider the polynomial $G(x)=(F(x)-r_1)(F(x)-r_2) \dots (F(x)-r_{m+1})$. As all these terms in product are pairwise co-prime, so we get that $$\sum_{i=1}^{m+1} \text{deg}(\gcd(F-r_i,F'))=\text{deg}(\gcd(G,F')) \leq \text{deg}(F') \leq \deg(F)-1=n-1 \quad \blacksquare$$
REMARK: The Lemma is tbh just a mixture of some well-known facts. For example, the fact that the number of distinct roots of a polynomial $A$ is $\text{deg}(A)-\text{deg}(\gcd(A,A'))$ is well-known (maybe not exactly in that form). Similarly, the second half of the proof of the Lemma (introducing $G$) is well motivated if one catches hold of the fact that degrees get added on multiplying pairwise co-prime polynomials.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by math_pi_rate, Feb 25, 2019, 12:12 PM
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Spacesam
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#24
Y by
Haha derivative go brrr. We get \begin{align*}
    P(x)^9 \left(P(x) + 1 \right) &= Q(x)^{20} \left(Q(x) + 1 \right) \\
    P'(x) \cdot P(x)^8 \left(10P(x) + 9 \right) &= Q'(x) \cdot Q(x)^{19} \left(21Q(x) + 20 \right)
\end{align*}to work with.

By analyzing the leading term of both sides in the first equation, and because $\gcd(10, 21) = 1$, we find that the degree of $P$ is $21c$ for some $c$ and the degree of $Q$ is $10c$.

Observe that $Q(x)$ divides $P(x)(P(x) + 1)$. Additionally, notice that \begin{align*}
    \gcd(10P(x) + 9, P(x) + 1) = \gcd(10P(x) + 9, P(x)) = 1,
\end{align*}hence we know that $10P(x) + 9$ divides $Q'(x) \cdot (21Q(x) + 20)$. But this is cap; the degree of the left is $21c$ and the degree of the right is $10c - 1 + 10c = 20c - 1$, smaller. Thus we are done.
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ILOVEMYFAMILY
641 posts
#25
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v_Enhance wrote:
The answer is no; here is the official solution. Assume $(P,Q)$ work, so $\deg P = 21n$ and $\deg Q = 10n$ for some $n$. Then we have: \begin{align*} 	1 &= \gcd(P,10P+9) = \gcd(P+1, 10P+9) \\ 	\implies 1 &= \gcd\left( P^{10} + P^9, 10P+9 \right) = \gcd\left( Q^{21} + Q^{20}, 10P+9 \right) \\ 	\implies 1 &= \gcd(Q, 10P+9). \end{align*}
Now, we take a derivative: \[ P' \cdot P^8 \cdot \left( 10P + 9 \right) 	= Q' \cdot Q^{19} \cdot \left( 21Q + 20 \right) \neq 0. \]Thus $10P+9$ should divide $Q' \cdot (21Q+20)$ but \[ \deg(10P+9) = 21n > 20n-1 = \deg(Q' \cdot (21Q+20)). \]

What does gcd (P,Q) mean? I never see the definition of greatest common divisor for polynomial.Can you explain,plz?
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IAmTheHazard
5000 posts
#26
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A bit overcomplicated but the idea is the same.

The answer is no.
Suppose $r$ is an arbitrary root of either side of the equation (we will refer to this as a "root of the equation"), and let $(A,B)$ denote $\gcd(A,B)$. We consider four cases—note that $r$ must fall in exactly one of these.
If $r$ is a root of $(P,Q)$, then it is a root of $P(x)^{10}+P(x)^9$ with multiplicity divisible by $9$, and a root of $Q(x)^{21}+Q(x)^{20}$ with multiplicity divisible by $20$. Thus $r$ is a root of the equation, it must have multiplicity divisible by $180$. Thus we can say that there are $A$ distinct roots of the equation which contribute a total multiplicity of $180a$.
If $r$ is a root of $(P+1,Q)$, then it is a root of the equation with multiplicity divisible by $20$, so we can say there are $B$ distinct roots with total multiplicity $20b$.
If $r$ is a root of $(P,Q+1)$, then we can say there are $C$ distinct roots with total multiplicity $9c$.
If $r$ is a root of $(P+1,Q+1)$, then we can say there are $D$ distinct roots with total multiplicity $d$.
Note that $A \leq a$ and similarly for the other pairs of variables.
Now, note that $P$ will have exactly $20a+c$ roots with multiplicity (since each root contributes nine times) and $P+1$ will have exactly $20b+d$ roots with multiplicity (since each root contributes once). Likewise, $Q$ will have exactly $9a+b$ roots and $Q+1$ will have exactly $9c+d$ roots.
It is well-known (say, by the product rule) that for any root of a polynomial $f$ with multiplicity $m$ is a root of $f'$ with multiplicity $m-1$. Thus, $P'$ has at least $20a+20b+c+d-A-B-C-D$ roots (with multiplicity). Thus,
$$20a+20b+c+d-A-B-C-D \leq \deg P'=\deg P-1=20a+c-1 \implies 20b+d\leq A+B+C+D-1,$$and similarly $20a+c\leq A+B+C+D-1$ (from looking at $P+1$ instead of $P$), so
$$20a+20b+c+d\leq 2A+2B+2C+2D-2 \leq 2a+2b+2c+2d-2 \implies 18a+18b+2 \leq c+d.$$On the other hand, this means that
$$\deg Q=9a+b<18a+18b+2\leq c+d\leq 9c+d=\deg (Q+1),$$which is absurd, hence no such polynomials exist. $\blacksquare$
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HamstPan38825
8853 posts
#27
Y by
The answer is no. The key is the following lemma.

Lemma. Let $\mathcal S(P)$ denote the set of roots, without multiplicity, of a polynomial $P$. Then $$|\mathcal S(P)| + |\mathcal S(P+1)| \geq \deg P + 1.$$
Proof. See here. (Indeed, the similarity to that problem has been pointed out previously in the thread.) $\blacksquare$

First, by comparing degrees, $\deg P = 21k$ and $\deg Q = 10k$ for some positive integer $k$.

Now notice that $$|\mathcal S(P(x)^{10} + P(x)^9)| = |\mathcal S(P(x))| + |\mathcal S(P(x) + 1)| \geq 21k+1$$by the lemma. On the other hand, $$|\mathcal S(Q(x)^{21} + Q(x)^{20})| \leq \deg Q + \deg(Q+1) = 20k.$$This yields a contradiction. $\blacksquare$
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by HamstPan38825, Jul 7, 2023, 8:13 AM
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asdf334
7580 posts
#28 • 2 Y
Y by megarnie, bjump
i hate algebra i hate algebra i hate algebra i hate algebra

why does it have to be calculus?? also missed the other P, P+1 question in DAW realpoly whoops
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CT17
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#29 • 4 Y
Y by InterLoop, ex-center, CyclicISLscelesTrapezoid, bjump
We will consider both the given equation $P^9(P+1) = Q^{20}(Q+1)$ and its derivative $P^8P'(10P+9) = Q^{19}Q'(21Q+20)$. The former implies that any root $r$ of $Q$ is a root of $P$ or $P+1$. In particular, $Q$ does not share any roots with $10P+9$, so $10P+9\mid Q'(21Q+20)$. However this is absurd since $\text{deg}P = \frac{21}{10}\text{deg}Q$, so no such polynomials exist.

Edit: milestone post or something.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by CT17, Feb 27, 2024, 3:45 PM
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N3bula
253 posts
#30
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We have that $\deg(Q(x))=10n$ and $\deg (P(x))=21n$ for some $n$. Clearly we have that all the roots of $P(x)$ and all the roots of $P(x)+1$
are also roots of either $Q(x)$ or $Q(x)+1$. Let $P$ be the set of distinct roots of $P(x)$, $P_1$ be the set of distinct roots of $P(x)+1$ and
define $Q$ and $Q_1$ similarly. We have that $\vert P \cup P_1 \vert \geq 21n+1$ by Putnam 1956 B7, thus we also get that as $\deg(Q(x))=10n$,
$\vert Q \cup Q_1 \vert \leq 20n$, so we have a contradiction and thus no such polynomials exist.
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ihategeo_1969
162 posts
#31
Y by
I replaced $P$ and $Q$ in question by mistake and Im too lazy to change, sorry.

The answer is $\boxed{\text{no}}$.

Assume there does then see that $\deg P=10d$ and $\deg Q=21d$ for some $d>0$. Differentiate it once and see that we have the equations \begin{align*}
& P^{20}(P+1)=Q^9(Q+1) \\
& P^{19} \cdot P' (21P+20)=Q^8 \cdot Q'(10Q+9)
\end{align*}Divide the two equations and we get \[(Q+1)QP'(21P+20)=(P+1)PQ'(10Q+9]\]But see that $\gcd(Q(Q+1),10Q+9)=1$ anfd so we have \[(Q+1)Q \mid (P+1)PQ' \implies 42d \le 20d+21d=41d\]Which is a contradiction.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by ihategeo_1969, Today at 7:26 AM
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