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k a March Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Mar 2, 2025
March is the month for State MATHCOUNTS competitions! Kudos to everyone who participated in their local chapter competitions and best of luck to all going to State! Join us on March 11th for a Math Jam devoted to our favorite Chapter competition problems! Are you interested in training for MATHCOUNTS? Be sure to check out our AMC 8/MATHCOUNTS Basics and Advanced courses.

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Do you have plans this summer? There are so many options to fit your schedule and goals whether attending a summer camp or taking online classes, it can be a great break from the routine of the school year. Check out our summer courses at AoPS Online, or if you want a math or language arts class that doesn’t have homework, but is an enriching summer experience, our AoPS Virtual Campus summer camps may be just the ticket! We are expanding our locations for our AoPS Academies across the country with 15 locations so far and new campuses opening in Saratoga CA, Johns Creek GA, and the Upper West Side NY. Check out this page for summer camp information.

Be sure to mark your calendars for the following events:
[list][*]March 5th (Wednesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, HCSSiM Math Jam 2025. Amber Verser, Assistant Director of the Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics, will host an information session about HCSSiM, a summer program for high school students.
[*]March 6th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar on Math Competitions from elementary through high school. Join us for an enlightening session that demystifies the world of math competitions and helps you make informed decisions about your contest journey.
[*]March 11th (Tuesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, 2025 MATHCOUNTS Chapter Discussion MATH JAM. AoPS instructors will discuss some of their favorite problems from the MATHCOUNTS Chapter Competition. All are welcome!
[*]March 13th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar about Summer Camps at the Virtual Campus. Transform your summer into an unforgettable learning adventure! From elementary through high school, we offer dynamic summer camps featuring topics in mathematics, language arts, and competition preparation - all designed to fit your schedule and ignite your passion for learning.[/list]
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0 replies
jlacosta
Mar 2, 2025
0 replies
k i A Letter to MSM
Arr0w   23
N Sep 19, 2022 by scannose
Greetings.

I have seen many posts talking about commonly asked questions, such as finding the value of $0^0$, $\frac{1}{0}$,$\frac{0}{0}$, $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$, why $0.999...=1$ or even expressions of those terms combined as if that would make them defined. I have made this post to answer these questions once and for all, and I politely ask everyone to link this post to threads that are talking about this issue.
[list]
[*]Firstly, the case of $0^0$. It is usually regarded that $0^0=1$, not because this works numerically but because it is convenient to define it this way. You will see the convenience of defining other undefined things later on in this post.

[*]What about $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$? The issue here is that $\infty$ isn't even rigorously defined in this expression. What exactly do we mean by $\infty$? Unless the example in question is put in context in a formal manner, then we say that $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is meaningless.

[*]What about $\frac{1}{0}$? Suppose that $x=\frac{1}{0}$. Then we would have $x\cdot 0=0=1$, absurd. A more rigorous treatment of the idea is that $\lim_{x\to0}\frac{1}{x}$ does not exist in the first place, although you will see why in a calculus course. So the point is that $\frac{1}{0}$ is undefined.

[*]What about if $0.99999...=1$? An article from brilliant has a good explanation. Alternatively, you can just use a geometric series. Notice that
\begin{align*}
\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^n}&=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{1}{10^n}=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\biggr(\frac{1}{10}\biggr)^n=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{1-\frac{1}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{\frac{9}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{1}{9}\biggr)=\boxed{1}
\end{align*}
[*]What about $\frac{0}{0}$? Usually this is considered to be an indeterminate form, but I would also wager that this is also undefined.
[/list]
Hopefully all of these issues and their corollaries are finally put to rest. Cheers.

2nd EDIT (6/14/22): Since I originally posted this, it has since blown up so I will try to add additional information per the request of users in the thread below.

INDETERMINATE VS UNDEFINED

What makes something indeterminate? As you can see above, there are many things that are indeterminate. While definitions might vary slightly, it is the consensus that the following definition holds: A mathematical expression is be said to be indeterminate if it is not definitively or precisely determined. So how does this make, say, something like $0/0$ indeterminate? In analysis (the theory behind calculus and beyond), limits involving an algebraic combination of functions in an independent variable may often be evaluated by replacing these functions by their limits. However, if the expression obtained after this substitution does not provide sufficient information to determine the original limit, then the expression is called an indeterminate form. For example, we could say that $0/0$ is an indeterminate form.

But we need to more specific, this is still ambiguous. An indeterminate form is a mathematical expression involving at most two of $0$, $1$ or $\infty$, obtained by applying the algebraic limit theorem (a theorem in analysis, look this up for details) in the process of attempting to determine a limit, which fails to restrict that limit to one specific value or infinity, and thus does not determine the limit being calculated. This is why it is called indeterminate. Some examples of indeterminate forms are
\[0/0, \infty/\infty, \infty-\infty, \infty \times 0\]etc etc. So what makes something undefined? In the broader scope, something being undefined refers to an expression which is not assigned an interpretation or a value. A function is said to be undefined for points outside its domain. For example, the function $f:\mathbb{R}^{+}\cup\{0\}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}$ given by the mapping $x\mapsto \sqrt{x}$ is undefined for $x<0$. On the other hand, $1/0$ is undefined because dividing by $0$ is not defined in arithmetic by definition. In other words, something is undefined when it is not defined in some mathematical context.

WHEN THE WATERS GET MUDDIED

So with this notion of indeterminate and undefined, things get convoluted. First of all, just because something is indeterminate does not mean it is not undefined. For example $0/0$ is considered both indeterminate and undefined (but in the context of a limit then it is considered in indeterminate form). Additionally, this notion of something being undefined also means that we can define it in some way. To rephrase, this means that technically, we can make something that is undefined to something that is defined as long as we define it. I'll show you what I mean.

One example of making something undefined into something defined is the extended real number line, which we define as
\[\overline{\mathbb{R}}=\mathbb{R}\cup \{-\infty,+\infty\}.\]So instead of treating infinity as an idea, we define infinity (positively and negatively, mind you) as actual numbers in the reals. The advantage of doing this is for two reasons. The first is because we can turn this thing into a totally ordered set. Specifically, we can let $-\infty\le a\le \infty$ for each $a\in\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ which means that via this order topology each subset has an infimum and supremum and $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ is therefore compact. While this is nice from an analytic standpoint, extending the reals in this way can allow for interesting arithmetic! In $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ it is perfectly OK to say that,
\begin{align*}
a + \infty = \infty + a & = \infty, & a & \neq -\infty \\
a - \infty = -\infty + a & = -\infty, & a & \neq \infty \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty] \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \mp\infty, & a & \in [-\infty, 0) \\
\frac{a}{\pm\infty} & = 0, & a & \in \mathbb{R} \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty) \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \mp\infty, & a & \in (-\infty, 0).
\end{align*}So addition, multiplication, and division are all defined nicely. However, notice that we have some indeterminate forms here which are also undefined,
\[\infty-\infty,\frac{\pm\infty}{\pm\infty},\frac{\pm\infty}{0},0\cdot \pm\infty.\]So while we define certain things, we also left others undefined/indeterminate in the process! However, in the context of measure theory it is common to define $\infty \times 0=0$ as greenturtle3141 noted below. I encourage to reread what he wrote, it's great stuff! As you may notice, though, dividing by $0$ is undefined still! Is there a place where it isn't? Kind of. To do this, we can extend the complex numbers! More formally, we can define this extension as
\[\mathbb{C}^*=\mathbb{C}\cup\{\tilde{\infty}\}\]which we call the Riemann Sphere (it actually forms a sphere, pretty cool right?). As a note, $\tilde{\infty}$ means complex infinity, since we are in the complex plane now. Here's the catch: division by $0$ is allowed here! In fact, we have
\[\frac{z}{0}=\tilde{\infty},\frac{z}{\tilde{\infty}}=0.\]where $\tilde{\infty}/\tilde{\infty}$ and $0/0$ are left undefined. We also have
\begin{align*}
z+\tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne -\infty\\
z\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne 0
\end{align*}Furthermore, we actually have some nice properties with multiplication that we didn't have before. In $\mathbb{C}^*$ it holds that
\[\tilde{\infty}\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}\]but $\tilde{\infty}-\tilde{\infty}$ and $0\times \tilde{\infty}$ are left as undefined (unless there is an explicit need to change that somehow). One could define the projectively extended reals as we did with $\mathbb{C}^*$, by defining them as
\[{\widehat {\mathbb {R} }}=\mathbb {R} \cup \{\infty \}.\]They behave in a similar way to the Riemann Sphere, with division by $0$ also being allowed with the same indeterminate forms (in addition to some other ones).
23 replies
Arr0w
Feb 11, 2022
scannose
Sep 19, 2022
k i Marathon Threads
LauraZed   0
Jul 2, 2019
Due to excessive spam and inappropriate posts, we have locked the Prealgebra and Beginning Algebra threads.

We will either unlock these threads once we've cleaned them up or start new ones, but for now, do not start new marathon threads for these subjects. Any new marathon threads started while this announcement is up will be immediately deleted.
0 replies
LauraZed
Jul 2, 2019
0 replies
k i Basic Forum Rules and Info (Read before posting)
jellymoop   368
N May 16, 2018 by harry1234
f (Reminder: Do not post Alcumus or class homework questions on this forum. Instructions below.) f
Welcome to the Middle School Math Forum! Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the rules.

Overview:
[list]
[*] When you're posting a new topic with a math problem, give the topic a detailed title that includes the subject of the problem (not just "easy problem" or "nice problem")
[*] Stay on topic and be courteous.
[*] Hide solutions!
[*] If you see an inappropriate post in this forum, simply report the post and a moderator will deal with it. Don't make your own post telling people they're not following the rules - that usually just makes the issue worse.
[*] When you post a question that you need help solving, post what you've attempted so far and not just the question. We are here to learn from each other, not to do your homework. :P
[*] Avoid making posts just to thank someone - you can use the upvote function instead
[*] Don't make a new reply just to repeat yourself or comment on the quality of others' posts; instead, post when you have a new insight or question. You can also edit your post if it's the most recent and you want to add more information.
[*] Avoid bumping old posts.
[*] Use GameBot to post alcumus questions.
[*] If you need general MATHCOUNTS/math competition advice, check out the threads below.
[*] Don't post other users' real names.
[*] Advertisements are not allowed. You can advertise your forum on your profile with a link, on your blog, and on user-created forums that permit forum advertisements.
[/list]

Here are links to more detailed versions of the rules. These are from the older forums, so you can overlook "Classroom math/Competition math only" instructions.
Posting Guidelines
Update on Basic Forum Rules
What belongs on this forum?
How do I write a thorough solution?
How do I get a problem on the contest page?
How do I study for mathcounts?
Mathcounts FAQ and resources
Mathcounts and how to learn

As always, if you have any questions, you can PM me or any of the other Middle School Moderators. Once again, if you see spam, it would help a lot if you filed a report instead of responding :)

Marathons!
Relays might be a better way to describe it, but these threads definitely go the distance! One person starts off by posting a problem, and the next person comes up with a solution and a new problem for another user to solve. Here's some of the frequently active marathons running in this forum:
[list][*]Algebra
[*]Prealgebra
[*]Proofs
[*]Factoring
[*]Geometry
[*]Counting & Probability
[*]Number Theory[/list]
Some of these haven't received attention in a while, but these are the main ones for their respective subjects. Rather than starting a new marathon, please give the existing ones a shot first.

You can also view marathons via the Marathon tag.

Think this list is incomplete or needs changes? Let the mods know and we'll take a look.
368 replies
jellymoop
May 8, 2015
harry1234
May 16, 2018
Complex numbers should be easy
RenheMiResembleRice   1
N 3 minutes ago by RenheMiResembleRice
Source: Wenjing Kong
I cant do the last part. :(
1 reply
RenheMiResembleRice
15 minutes ago
RenheMiResembleRice
3 minutes ago
Strange NT
magicarrow   20
N 3 minutes ago by Yuvi01
Source: Romanian Masters in Mathematics 2020, Problem 6
For each integer $n \geq 2$, let $F(n)$ denote the greatest prime factor of $n$. A strange pair is a pair of distinct primes $p$ and $q$ such that there is no integer $n \geq 2$ for which $F(n)F(n+1)=pq$.

Prove that there exist infinitely many strange pairs.
20 replies
magicarrow
Mar 1, 2020
Yuvi01
3 minutes ago
D1010 : How it is possible ?
Dattier   13
N 5 minutes ago by Dattier
Source: les dattes à Dattier
Is it true that$$\forall n \in \mathbb N^*, (24^n \times B \mod A) \mod 2 = 0 $$?

A=1728400904217815186787639216753921417860004366580219212750904
024377969478249664644267971025952530803647043121025959018172048
336953969062151534282052863307398281681465366665810775710867856
720572225880311472925624694183944650261079955759251769111321319
421445397848518597584590900951222557860592579005088853698315463
815905425095325508106272375728975

B=2275643401548081847207782760491442295266487354750527085289354
965376765188468052271190172787064418854789322484305145310707614
546573398182642923893780527037224143380886260467760991228567577
953725945090125797351518670892779468968705801340068681556238850
340398780828104506916965606659768601942798676554332768254089685
307970609932846902
13 replies
Dattier
Mar 10, 2025
Dattier
5 minutes ago
Inspired by my own results
sqing   1
N 6 minutes ago by lbh_qys
Source: Own
Let $ a,b,c\geq \frac{1}{2}  . $ Prove that
$$ (a+1)(b+2)(c +1)-15 abc\leq \frac{15}{4}$$$$ (a+1)(b+3)(c +1)-21abc\leq \frac{21}{4}$$$$(a+2)(b+1)(c +2)-25a b c \leq \frac{25}{4}$$$$ (a+2)(b+3)(c +2)-35a b c \leq  \frac{35}{2}$$$$    (a+3)(b+1)(c +3)-49a b c \leq  \frac{49}{4}$$$$ (a+3)(b+2)(c +3)-49a b c \leq \frac{49}{2}$$
1 reply
1 viewing
sqing
13 minutes ago
lbh_qys
6 minutes ago
a problem
Bummer12345   7
N Today at 2:45 AM by mathelvin
Alice and Bob play a game where Alice starts with $3$ MathJuice bottles and Bob starts with $2$ MathJuice bottles. An unfair coin is then flipped, with probability $\frac{2}{3}$ of landing heads. If the coin lands heads, Alice gives Bob a bottle; otherwise, Bob gives Alice a bottle. This process repeats until someone runs out of bottles.

(a): What is the probability that Bob will lose all of his bottles before Alice does?
(b): What is the expected number of times the coin has been flipped by the time the game ends?

Source: Own
7 replies
Bummer12345
Wednesday at 8:00 PM
mathelvin
Today at 2:45 AM
Factoring Marathon
pican   1430
N Today at 12:11 AM by Cerberusman
Hello guys,
I think we should start a factoring marathon. Post your solutions like this SWhatever, and your problems like this PWhatever. Please make your own problems, and I'll start off simple: P1
1430 replies
pican
Aug 4, 2015
Cerberusman
Today at 12:11 AM
How important is math "intuition"
Dream9   14
N Today at 12:08 AM by BananaBall00
When I see problems now, they usually fall under 3 categories: easy, annoying, and cannot solve. Over time, more problems become easy, but I don't think I'm learning anything "new" so is higher level math like AMC 10 more about practice, so you know what to do when you see a problem? Of course, there's formulas for some problems but when reading a lot of solutions I didn't see many weird formulas being used and it was just the way to solve the problem was "odd".
14 replies
Dream9
Wednesday at 2:16 PM
BananaBall00
Today at 12:08 AM
Does Beast Academy Fully Cover Common Core?
markonthird   3
N Yesterday at 9:37 PM by Andyluo
I was thinking about switching my son to the Beast Academy books but there aren't many reviews of this book series and it is relatively new. Do you happen to know if there are any reviews of the Beast Academy books from highly reputable sources? I am going to use the Beast Academy books as a supplemental but I was thinking about using them as the primary math books.

About how well does Beast Academy cover common core? Does it cover it very thoroughly?

Background: My son is an advanced math learner. I want him to do AMC 8. I am teaching him with Into Math by HMH--he will be done with its 4th grade book at the end of this summer, I estimate. He is currently in 1st grade. At his school, he is in their 2nd/3rd grade math class. Into Math by HMH follows common core closely and he is doing well with it, so I'm hesitant to change. Into Math is also a well-reviewed book series.


3 replies
markonthird
Yesterday at 9:31 PM
Andyluo
Yesterday at 9:37 PM
Angle problem
FlyingDragon21   24
N Yesterday at 8:16 PM by FlyingDragon21
In Isosceles triangle ABC where AB equals AC and point D lies on line AB, line CD splits line AB so that AD equals BC. If angle BAC is 20 degrees, what is the measure of angle DCA?
24 replies
FlyingDragon21
Mar 18, 2025
FlyingDragon21
Yesterday at 8:16 PM
Combi counting
Caasi_Gnow   1
N Yesterday at 7:27 PM by franklin2013
Find the number of different ways to arrange seven people around a circular meeting table if A and B must sit together and C and D cannot sit next to each other. (Note: the order for A and B might be A,B or B,A)
1 reply
Caasi_Gnow
Yesterday at 7:39 AM
franklin2013
Yesterday at 7:27 PM
Mathcounts Challenge: Area and Perimeter
Syntax Error   20
N Yesterday at 6:25 PM by mathelvin
If the perimeter of an isosceles triangle is 36cm and the altitude to its base is 12cm, what is the area, in square centimeters, of the triangle?


this was a countdown round, so do it fast
20 replies
Syntax Error
Sep 9, 2003
mathelvin
Yesterday at 6:25 PM
Tangent Spheres in a plane
ReticulatedPython   13
N Yesterday at 6:02 PM by ChaitraliKA
Three mutually tangent spheres with radius $6$ rest on a plane. A sphere with radius $10$ is tangent to all of them, but does not intersect nor lie on the plane. A sphere with radius $r$ lies on the plane, and is tangent to all three spheres with radius $6.$ Compute the shortest distance between the sphere with radius $r$ and the sphere with radius $10.$

Source: Own
13 replies
ReticulatedPython
Wednesday at 9:44 PM
ChaitraliKA
Yesterday at 6:02 PM
state mathcounts colorado
aoh11   55
N Yesterday at 2:35 PM by Nioronean
I have state mathcounts tomorrow. What should I do to get prepared btw, and what are some tips for doing sprint and cdr?
55 replies
aoh11
Mar 15, 2025
Nioronean
Yesterday at 2:35 PM
Why was this poll blocked
jkim0656   10
N Yesterday at 2:16 PM by iwastedmyusername
Hey AoPS ppl!
I made a poll about Pi vs Tau over here:
https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c3h3527460
But after a few days it got blocked but i don't get why?
how is this harmful or different from other polls?
It really wasn't that harmful or popular i got to say tho... :noo:
10 replies
jkim0656
Mar 18, 2025
iwastedmyusername
Yesterday at 2:16 PM
IMO Shortlist 2011, Algebra 5
orl   18
N Mar 17, 2025 by mathfun07
Source: IMO Shortlist 2011, Algebra 5
Prove that for every positive integer $n,$ the set $\{2,3,4,\ldots,3n+1\}$ can be partitioned into $n$ triples in such a way that the numbers from each triple are the lengths of the sides of some obtuse triangle.

Proposed by Canada
18 replies
orl
Jul 11, 2012
mathfun07
Mar 17, 2025
IMO Shortlist 2011, Algebra 5
G H J
Source: IMO Shortlist 2011, Algebra 5
The post below has been deleted. Click to close.
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orl
3647 posts
#1 • 6 Y
Y by Davi-8191, tenplusten, ApraTrip, Adventure10, Mango247, and 1 other user
Prove that for every positive integer $n,$ the set $\{2,3,4,\ldots,3n+1\}$ can be partitioned into $n$ triples in such a way that the numbers from each triple are the lengths of the sides of some obtuse triangle.

Proposed by Canada
Z K Y
The post below has been deleted. Click to close.
This post has been deleted. Click here to see post.
pco
23452 posts
#2 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
orl wrote:
Prove that for every positive integer $n,$ the set $\{2,3,4,\ldots,3n+1\}$ can be partitioned into $n$ triples in such a way that the numbers from each triple are the lengths of the sides of some obtuse triangle.
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=480457
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mavropnevma
15142 posts
#3 • 8 Y
Y by AlastorMoody, David-Vieta, Adventure10, Mango247, and 4 other users
So our friend gold46 (from remote Mongolia), not only was (s)he in possession of the 2011 Shortlist, but also made part of it public by May 20, 2012, while everybody else tried to keep its secrecy until disclosure time July 12, 2012. Way to go ...
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Amir Hossein
5452 posts
#4 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
That happens sometimes. Some countries use these problems as their TSTs and after the TST is done, problems may be posted on AoPS. This is the main reason they don't reveal Shortlist before IMO. However, I don't know why we should wait till the IMO is held. But I guess that's because different countries hold Team Selections in different times, and even some of them choose the students going to IMO in a short while before IMO.
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MariusBocanu
429 posts
#5 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
Maybe i made a mistake in my proof.Please tell me if i'm wrong.
Denote $A=\{2,3,...2n+1\}, B=\{2n+2,...3n+1\}$. The triples will have the form $\{2n+1+i, 2i, 2i+1\}, i\in \{1,...n\}$.
The condition for a triangle to be obtuse is( from cosine law) $a^2>b^2+c^2$, and in our case, it means $4n^2+i^2+1+4ni+4n+2i> 8i^2+1+4i$, which is equivalent to $4n^2+4ni+4n> 7i^2+2i$, but $n\ge i$, so $4n^2+4ni>7i^2, 4n>2i$.
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mavropnevma
15142 posts
#6 • 4 Y
Y by AlastorMoody, Adventure10, Mango247, and 1 other user
MariusBocanu wrote:
The triples will have the form $\{2n+1+i, 2i, 2i+1\}$, $i\in \{1,\ldots,n\}$.
But for small values of $i$ (like for example $i=1$) we have $ 2i + (2i+1) < 2n+1+i$, so the triangle inequality is not satisfied. Trying to get the obtuse condition, you lost the ball out of your eyesight; it happens :)
And what for are the notations $A$ and $B$ if they're not used later?
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polya78
105 posts
#7 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
Proof by induction. For any $(a,b,c)$, (all triplets used here assume $a < b < c$), define $S(a,b,c)=a+b-c$ and $T(a,b,c)=c^2-b^2-a^2$, then the problem is to divide $(2,3,...3n+1)$ into triplets, each ascending, where $S(a,b,c),T(a,b,c) > 0$.

Call $(a,b,c)$ good if $S(a,b,c),T(a,b,c) >0$. Note that if $(a,b,c)$ is good, so is $(a,b+k,c+k)$, for any integral k.

The inductive hypothesis is that $(2,3,...3k+1)$ can be partitioned into $k$ good triplets, the $ith$ triplet having first element $i+1$. For $k=1$, it is clearly true since $(2,3,4)$ is good. Assume this is true for $k=1,2,...n-1$. Now let $x= \lfloor 5n/2 \rfloor +1$. Calculation shows that $(n+1,x,3n+1)$ is good, as are $(n,x-1,3n),(n-1,x-2,3n-1),...(x-2n+1,2x-3n,x+1)$. In total, these comprise all the elements of $(2,3,...3n+1)$, except for $(2,3,...x-2n)$ and $(n+2,n+3,...,2x-3n-1)$. To construct the missing triplets, take the solution triplets $(i+1,b_i,c_i)$ for $k=x-2n-1$, and create the triplets $(i+1,b_i+(3n+1-x),c_i+(3n+1-x))$, all of which are good. The partition is now complete.
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leader
339 posts
#8 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
Lemma:
Triangle with sides $x,x+r-1,r$ is obtuse for positive integers $x,r$ with $x>r>1$.
Proof:
It is equivalent to $(x+r-1)^2>x^2+r^2$ which becomes $2(x-1)(r-1)>1$ which is true.
Now for $n=2k$ construct these triplets.
$2k+1-2i,2k+2+i,4k+2-i$ $ i=0,..,k$ and $2k-2-2i,6k+1-i,4k+4+i$ for $i=0,..,k-2$(these are all of the form as in the lemma which means they are sides of obtuse triangles) and the triplet $2k,3k+2,4k+4$ which are also sides of an obtuse triangle for $k\ge 2$
Similar construction is for $n=2k+1$
Only left case is $n=1$ which is obvious.
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JuanOrtiz
366 posts
#9 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
pplay around with small values of $ n $, it is not hard at all to come up with a solution
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v_Enhance
6862 posts
#10 • 5 Y
Y by InCtrl, Amir Hossein, Lcz, v4913, Adventure10
Here is one of many possible constructions. We will prove one can form such a partition such that $\{2,3,\dots,n+1\}$ are in different triples; let $P(n)$ denote this statement.

We make the following observation: If $a<b<c$ is an obtuse triple, then so is $(a,b+x,c+x)$ for any $x > 0$.

Observe $P(1)$ is obviously true.

Claim: We have $P(n) \implies P(2n)$ for all $n \ge 1$.

Proof. Take the partition for $P(n)$ and use the observation to get a construction for $\{2, \dots, n+1\} \sqcup \{2n+2, \dots, 4n+1\}$. Now consider the following table: \[ 		\left[ 		\begin{array}{cccc|cccc} 			2 & 3 & \dots & n+1 & n+2 & n+3 & \dots & 2n+1 \\ \hline 			\multicolumn{4}{c|}{\text{Induction}} & 4n+2 & 4n+3 & \dots & 5n+1 \\ 			\multicolumn{4}{c|}{\text{hypothesis}} & 5n+2 & 5n+3 & \dots & 6n+1 		\end{array} 		\right] 	\]We claim all the column are obtuse. Indeed, they are obviously the sides of a triangle; now let $2 \le k \le n+1$ and note that \[ k^2 < 8n^2 \implies (n+k)^2 + (4n+k)^2 < (5n+k)^2 \]as desired. $\blacksquare$



Claim: We have $P(n) \implies P(2n-1)$ for all $n \ge 2$.

Proof. Take the partition for $P(n)$ and use the observation to get a construction for $\{2, \dots, n+1\} \sqcup \{2n+1, \dots, 4n+1\}$. Now consider the following table: \[ 		\left[ 		\begin{array}{cccc|cccc} 			2 & 3 & \dots & n+1 & n+2 & n+3 & \dots & 2n \\ \hline 			\multicolumn{4}{c|}{\text{Induction}} & 4n+1 & 4n+2 & \dots & 5n-1 \\ 			\multicolumn{4}{c|}{\text{hypothesis}} & 5n & 5n+1 & \dots & 6n-2 		\end{array} 		\right] 	\]We claim all the columns are obtuse again. Indeed, they are obviously the sides of a triangle; now let $1 \le k \le n-1$ and note that \[ (k-2)^2 < 8n^2-12n+4 \implies (n+1+k)^2 + (4n+k)^2 < (5n+k-1)^2 \]as desired. $\blacksquare$

Together with the base case $P(1)$, we obtain $P(n)$ for all $n$.
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yayups
1614 posts
#11 • 2 Y
Y by Amir Hossein, Adventure10
Lemma: The numbers $\{d+1,n,n+d\}$ are the sides of an obtuse triangle for positive integers $d$ and $n\ge d+1$.

Proof of Lemma: The triangle inequality is clearly satisfied. Furthermore,
\[(n+d)^2-n^2-(d+1)^2=2nd-2d-1\ge 2d^2-1>0,\]so the triangle is obtuse. $\blacksquare$

We split into cases based on the parity of $n$.

Case 1: $n$ is even.

We claim that we can partition $[2n]\setminus\{3n/2,2n\}$ into $n-1$ pairs with differences ranging from $1$ to $n-1$. To do this, we pair up $\{n/2-k,n/2+k+1\}$ for $k=0,\ldots,n/2-1$, and $\{3n/2-k,3n/2+k\}$ for $k=1,\ldots,n/2-1$. Let the pair with difference $d$ be $\{a_d,b_d\}$, so $b_d-a_d=d$.

Make the triples $\{2,a_1+n+1,b_1+n+1\},\{3,a_2+n+1,b_2+n+1\},\ldots,\{n,a_{n-1}+n+1,b_{n-1}+n+1\},\{n+1,3n/2+n+1,3n+1\}$. By our lemma, the first $n-1$ triples work. It suffices to check that the last one works. The triangle inequality is clearly satisfied, and
\[(3n+1)^2-(n+1)^2-(5n/2+1)^2=7n^2/4-n-1>0\]for $n\ge 2$, as desired.

Case 2: $n$ is odd.

We claim we can partition $[2n]\setminus\{3n/2-1/2,2n\}$ into $n-1$ pairs with differences ranging from $1$ to $n-1$. Pair up $\{(n-1)/2-k,(n-1)/2+k+1\}$ for $k=0,\ldots,(n-1)/2-1$ and $\{(3n-1)/2-k,(3n-1)/2+k\}$ for $k=1,\ldots,(n-1)/2$. Let the pair with difference $d$ be $\{a_d,b_d\}$, so $b_d-a_d=d$.

Make the triples $\{2,a_1+n+1,b_1+n+1\},\{3,a_2+n+1,b_2+n+1\},\ldots,\{n,a_{n-1}+n+1,b_{n-1}+n+1\},\{n+1,(3n-1)/2+n+1,3n+1\}$. By our lemma, the first $n-1$ triples work. It suffices to check that the last one works. The triangle inequality is clearly satisfied, and
\[(3n+1)^2-(n+1)^2-(5n/2+1/2)^2=7n^2/4+3n/2-1/4>0\]for $n\ge 1$, as desired.

So we have a construction for all $n\ge 1$.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by yayups, Jan 24, 2019, 9:20 AM
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math_pi_rate
1218 posts
#12 • 3 Y
Y by Amir Hossein, Adventure10, Mango247
Here's a different way for the inductive approach: Call a triple of naturals $(i,j,k)$ a nice triple if $i<j<k$ are sides of an obtuse triangle, i.e. $i+j>k$ and $i^2+j^2<k^2$. We wish to show that $S(n)=\{2,3, \dots ,3n+1\}$ can be partitioned into $n$ nice triples. Call such a set $S(n)$ a nice set. We apply prefix induction (look at the variants of induction given here) on $n$, i.e. we try to prove that if $S(n)$ is nice, then so is $S(2n)$ and $S(2n+1)$, in which case we will be done. The base case $(n=1)$ is trivial (Take $(2,3,4)$ as the required nice triple). So now assume that the result is true for some $n \geq 2$.

First consider the set $S(2n)=\{2,4, \dots ,6n\} \cup \{3,5, \dots ,6n+1\}$. Now, if $(i,j,k)$ is a nice triple, then so are $(2i,2j,2k)$ and $(i-1,j-1,k-1)$. The first triple is easily seen to be nice, while the second one is nice using the following- $$(i-1)^2+(j-1)^2-(k-1)^2=(i^2+j^2-k^2)+2(k-i-j)+1 \leq -1+2(-1)+1<0$$This gives that if $A$ is a nice subset, then so is $2A$ and $A-1$. Using this fact, we get that, as $S(n)$ is nice, so $2(S(n)-1)=\{2,4, \dots ,6n\}$ and $2S(n)-1=\{3,5, \dots ,6n+1\}$ are also nice. Since the union of two disjoint nice sets is also nice, so we get that $S(2n)$ is a nice set.

Now, we take up the set $S(2n+1)$, which can be thought of as a union of the three sets of triples given below- $$\{(2n-2a+4,2n+a+2,4n-a+5):a=1,2, \dots ,n+1\} \cup \{(2n-2a+1,4n+a+5,6n-a+5):a=1,2, \dots ,n-1\} \cup (2n+1,4n+5,5n+5)$$It is easy to see that all of these triples are distinct and nice (Too lazy to show the calculations :D). This gives that $S(2n+1)$ is also a nice set, as desired. Hence, done. $\blacksquare$

REMARK: While trying this problem, I easily proved that $S(2n)$ is nice (Luckily the first thing I tried was induction; and when the normal induction didn't seem to work, it made sense to use prefix induction). However, proving that $S(2n+1)$ is also nice if $S(n)$ is nice came out as a difficult task, which I wasn't able to do even after trying for nearly an hour and a half (which is why I finally turned to finding out a construction, which is easy and doable in around an hour or so :P). So overall, I think this problem was a really nice one (pun intended :D), in its formation, as well as in the risk of getting stuck on it for a long time.
This post has been edited 5 times. Last edited by math_pi_rate, Mar 3, 2020, 6:49 AM
Reason: (j-1)^2- instead of (j-1)^-
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stroller
894 posts
#13 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
Not an induction
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by stroller, Feb 8, 2019, 11:09 PM
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william122
1576 posts
#14 • 1 Y
Y by TechnoLenzer
For each $n$, inductively construct a sequence of numbers in the following manner: Write $\lceil n/2\rceil$, and then repeat the process for $\lfloor n/2\rfloor$, until we get to $1$. For example, the sequence we construct for $19$ is: $10, 5, 2, 1, 1$. Now, if our sequence is $a_1,a_2,\ldots, a_i$ backwards, we split $[n+2,3n+1]$ into the following $i$ groups: $[2(a_1+\ldots + a_{i-1})+n+2, 2(a_1+\ldots+a_{i})+n+2)$, and in a group of size $2s$, we pair its first element with the $s+1$st element, etc.. In this way, we split the largest $2n$ numbers into $n$ pairs. Now, pair the pair with the $i$th smallest smaller element with $i$, to create $n$ triplets. We claim that each triplet forms an obtuse triangle.

Denote the $i$th triplet as $(i,y_i,z_i)$ such that $y_i,z_i$ are in the $k$th group formed by the $a_j$. In our construction for $\{a_j\}$, we have $a_1+\ldots+a_{j-1}\ge a_j-1$, meaning that if $y_i,z_i$ are in the $k$th group, we have that $i>a_k$, meaning triangle inequality is satisfied. Furthermore, we have $i<a_1+\ldots + a_k\le 2a_k$, so $z_i^2-y_i^2=(y_i+z_i)*2a_k>4a_k^2>i^2$, so the triangle is obtuse. So, this is a valid construction, as desired.
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IAmTheHazard
5000 posts
#15 • 3 Y
Y by Mango247, Mango247, Mango247
Call a triple $(a,b,c)$ stupid if $a<b<c$ and $a,b,c$ form an obtuse triangle, so we wish to partition $\{2,\ldots,3n+1\}$ into $n$ stupid triples. We begin with the following key lemma.

Lemma: If $(a,b,c)$ is stupid, then so is $(a,b+r,c+r)$ for any $r>0$.
Proof: Clearly the triangle inequality is satisfied. Furthermore, we have $a^2+b^2<c^2 \implies a^2+(b+r)^2<(c+r)^2$ for $r>0$, so combining these gives the desired. $\blacksquare$

Now we use strong downwards induction, with the base case of $n=1$ being trivial (the only option of $(2,3,4)$, which works). We will add the additional condition that our $n$ stupid triples should "separate" $2,\ldots,n+1$, i.e. each of these numbers is present (obviously as the least element) in a different stupid triple.
If $n=2m$ is even, then form the stupid triples $(2m+1,5m+1,6m+1),(2m,5m,6m),\ldots,(m+2,4m+2,3m+2)$. Note that we are left with the numbers $\{2,\ldots,m+1,2m+2,\ldots,4m+1\}$. Evidently, each of these triples satisfies the triangle inequality. Further, for any triple $(a,b,c)$ listed, we have
$$c^2-b^2\geq (5m+2)^2-(4m+2)^2=9m^2+4m>4m^2+4m+1=(2m+1)^2\geq a^2,$$so all these triangles are in fact obtuse. On the other hand, by inductive hypothesis we can form $m$ stupid triples with least parts $2,\ldots,m+1$ from the set $\{2,\ldots,m+1,m+2,\ldots,3m+1\}$, so by our lemma we should also be able to do this for $\{2,\ldots,m+1,2m+2,\ldots,4m+1\}$, completing the inductive step.
Otherwise, if $n=2m-1$ is odd, then form the stupid triples $(2m,5m-2,6m-2),(2m-1,5m-3,4m-3),\ldots,(m+1,4m-1,5m-1)$. Note that we are left with the numbers $\{2,\ldots,m,2m+1,\ldots,4m-2\}$. As before, each of these triples $(a,b,c)$ satisfies the triangle inequality, and also
$$c^2-b^2 \geq (5m-1)^2-(4m-1)^2=9m^2-2m>4m^2=(2m)^2\geq a^2,$$hence these triples are actually stupid. By inductive hypothesis, we can form $m-1$ stupid triples with least parts $2,\ldots,m$ from $\{2,\ldots,m,m+1,\ldots,3m-2\}$, so we can also do this for $\{2,\ldots,m,2m+1,\ldots,4m-2\}$ by the lemma. This again completes the inductive step.
Since these cases cover all possible $n$, we are done.

It is also possible to view this triple-generating process as an algorithm in the same way. In this case, the triples generated for $n=5$ would be $(6,13,16),(5,12,15),(4,11,14),(3,9,10),(2,7,8)$.

Remark: Why does this feel like it would have 1800 rating on codeforces?

Actual Remark (motivation): After looking at the $n=2$ case it seemed highly likely to me that some construction where we take $2,\ldots,n+1$ as the smallest elements and throw together the other elements (at the very least, it's worth a try). The most obvious way to do this would be to take $(n+1,6n,6n+1),(n,6n-1,6n-2)$, and so on, which is what's suggested by the $n=2$ construction, but when $n$ gets bigger the difference of $1$ between the squares isn't enough. On the other hand, if we make the differences really big to the point where the triangle is obtuse if it exists, the triangle inequality might not be satisfied. To overcome these "extreme issues" we probably want to do something in the middle. Looking at numbers near the top, we would probably like to get $(n+1,6n+1,6n-k)$ all the way to $(n+1-k,6n-k+1,6n-2k)$ for some suitable (approximate) choice of $k$. It turns out that $k \approx n/2$ works nicely, since the triangle inequality should just barely hold at the lower end and the obtuse condition should also hold. The rest is just correctly choosing boundary conditions.
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by IAmTheHazard, Dec 4, 2022, 6:32 PM
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awesomeming327.
1665 posts
#16
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Let $S(a,b,k)$ be $k$ triples of the following form:
\[(a-k+1,b-2k+1,b-k+1), (a-k+2,b-2k+2,b-k+2), \dots, (a,b-k, b)\]We impose the precondition that all of those triangles are non-degenerate and obtuse. Call $(a,b,c)$ an obtuse triple if $a<b<c$, $a+b>c$ and $a^2+b^2<c^2$. Then, if $(a,b,c)$ is obtuse then $a<b+k<c+k$, $a+(b+k)>(c+k)$ and \[a^2+(b+k)^2=a^2+b^2+2kb+k^2 < c^2+2kb+k^2 < c^2+ 2kc + k^2 = (c+k)^2\]so $(a,b+k,c+k)$ is also obtuse. Note that if $a^2+b^2<c^2$ and $a+b>c$ then \[(a-1)^2+(b-1)^2 = a^2+b^2-2(a+b)+1<a^2+b^2-2c+1<c^2-2c+1=(c-1)^2\]so if $(a,b,c)$ is obtuse and $a+b>c+1$ then so is $(a-1,b-1,c-1)$. Note that since $-7n^2+2n+1<0$ for all $n\ge 1$, we have $(2n+1)^2+(5n+1)^2 < (6n+1)^2$ and we have $n+2+4n+2>5n+2$, so $S(2n+1,6n+1,n)$ are all obtuse. It also uses every number like $\{n+2,n+3,\dots, 2n+1, 4n+2, 4n+3, \dots, 6n+1\}$.

Now, if you can partition $\{2,3,\dots 3n+1\}$ in a way that separates $\{2,3,\dots, n+1\}$ then if you add $n$ to each $b$ and $c$ in the obtuse triples, they stay obtuse and take up $\{2,3,\dots, n+1,2n+2,\dots, 4n+1\}$. Together with $S(2n+1,6n+1,n)$ we completed the partition. Thus, if the claim is true for $n$ then it is true for $2n$.

For $n$ implying $2n-1$ we can simply use $S(2n,6n-2,n-1)$ for the same effect and we will not go into detail.
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megarnie
5537 posts
#17
Y by
We prove a stronger statement:

Prove that for every positive integer $n,$ the set $\{2,3,4,\ldots,3n+1\}$ can be partitioned into $n$ triples in such a way that the numbers from each triple are the lengths of the sides of some obtuse triangle and none of the triangles have two side lengths less than or equal to $n+1$.

Call $(x,y,z)$ good if they are the length of the sides of an obtuse triangle. Notice that $(x,y,z)$ is good iff (WLOG $x<y<z$) $x^2  + y^2 < z^2$ and $x + y >z $. We want to split $\{2, 3, \ldots, 3n + 1\}$ into $n$ good triples.

Claim 1: If $(a,b,c)$ is good with $a < b < c$, then $(a, b + k, c + k)$ is also good for any positive integer $k$.
Proof: If $(a,b,c)$ was good, then $a^2 + b^2 < c^2$ and $a + b > c$. It suffices to show that $a^2 + (b+k)^2 < (c+k)^2$ and $a + b + k > c + k$. The second inequality holds true obviously since $a + b > c $ and the first inequality holds true because $a^2 + b^2 < c^2$ and $2bk < 2ck$. $\square$


Claim 2: If $(a,b,c)$ is good, $a<b<c$, and $a + b >c + 1$, then $(a-1, b-1, c-1)$ is also good.
Proof: Suppose $(a,b,c)$ was good. Clearly\[(a-1)^2 + (b-1)^2  = a^2 + b^2 - 2(a+b)  + 2 < c^2 - 2(c + 1) + 2 < (c-1)^2\]and $(a-1) + (b-1) = a + b - 2 > c - 1$, so $(a-1, b-1, c-1)$ is also good. $\square$

Claim 3: For any $n \ge 2$, if the statement is true, then the statement is true for $2n$ also.
Proof: We partition $\{2,3,4,\ldots, 6n + 1\}$ in the following way:

We partition the numbers in the interval $[n+2, 4n + 1]$ as\[\{n + 2, 2n + 2, 3n + 2\}, \{n + 3, 2n + 3, 3n + 3\}, \ldots, \{2n+1, 3n+1, 4n+1\}\]Obviously no two of these sets intersect. To see they are good, notice that $(2n+1)^2 + (3n+1)^2 < (4n+1)^2$, and then applying claim 2 gives the desired result.

Note that each $2\le r\le n + 1 $ was matched with two other numbers from $n+2$ to $3n + 1$ in the original partition of $\{2, 3, 4, \ldots, 3n + 1\}$. In our new partition, match it with those two same numbers except each added by $3n$. These two numbers will be each at least $n + 2$ originally, so when added by $3n$, they will at least $4n+2$, so they cannot intersect in the interval $[n + 2, 4n + 1]$. Furthermore, each of these triplets are good by claim 1, and cannot intersect each other. Therefore this partition works, so the claim is proven. $\square$

Claim 4: For any $n\ge 4$ if the statement is true, then the statement is true for $2n-1$ also.
Proof: We partition $\{2,3,4,\ldots, 6n - 2\}$ in the following way:

We partition the numbers in the interval $[n+2, 4n -2]$ as\[\{n+2, 2n+1, 3n\}, \{n+3, 2n+2, 3n+1\}, \ldots, \{2n , 3n - 1, 4n - 2\}\]Obviously no two of these sets intersect. To see they are good, notice $(2n)^2 + (3n-1)^2 < (4n-2)^2$, and then applying claim $2$ gives the desired result.

Note that each $2\le r\le n + 1$ was matched with two other numbers from $n + 2$ to $3n + 1$ in the original partition of $\{2,3,4,\ldots, 3n +1\}$. In our new partition, match it with those two same numbers except added by $3n - 3$. These two numbers will be originally at least $n + 2$, so when added by $3n - 3$, at least $4n - 1$ so they cannot intersect in the interval $[n + 2, 4n - 2]$. Furthermore, each of these triplets are good by claim $1$, and cannot intersect each other. Therefore, this partition works, so the claim is proven. $\square$

Now, we clearly see that the statement is true for $1, 2, 3, $ and $5$, by\begin{align*}
\{2,3,4\}  \\
\{2,4,5\} ,\{3,6,7\} \\
\{2,9,10\}, \{3,6,7\}, \{4,5,8\}, \\
\{5,7,9\}, \{4,12,14\}, \{2,10,11\}, \{3,15,16\}, \{6,8,13\} \\
\end{align*}respectively.

Now we may induct on $n$ to show it is true for all $n$. Note it is true for $n = 1,2,3,5$. Now suppose it was true for everything less than $k$ for some $k \ne \{1,2,3,5\}$.

If $k$ is even, the statement is true for $\frac{k}{2}$, so using claim $3$, it is true for $k$.

If $k$ is odd, the statement is true for $\frac{k + 1}{2} \ge 4$, so using claim $4$, it is true for $k$.

Therefore, the induction is complete, so we are done.
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YaoAOPS
1492 posts
#18
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Note that for $n = 2$ we have the base case of $(2, 3, 4)$. We now induct on the hypothesis that for a given $n$, the elements $\{2, \dots, n + 1\}$ are paired with two elements each from $\{n+2, 3n+1\}$.

Claim: A construction for $n$ gives us one for $2n$.
Proof. Suppose we have such a working example.
Now consider $\{2, 3, 4, \dots, 6n + 1\}$. We can shift the latter two elements of the earlier triplets to get obtuse triangles on $\{2, 3, 4, \dots, n+1\}$ with $\{2n+2, \dots, 4n+1\}$.
It remains to match $\{n+2, \dots, 2n+1\}$ with $\{4n+2, \dots, 6n+1\}$.
We can do this by having triplets $(n+1+i, 4n+1+i, 5n+1+i)$ for $1 \le i \le n$ which satisfies the triangle condition and are obtuse. $\blacksquare$

Claim: This also works for $2n + 1$.
Proof. Same idea but match $\{n+2, \dots, 2n+2\}$ with $\{4n+3, \dots, 6n+4\}$.
This can be done by taking triplets $(n+1+i, 4n+2+i, 5n+3+i)$. $\blacksquare$
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mathfun07
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Sketch (no induction):

The motivation is firstly that it would be nice constructively if we had every triplet begin with a small number from $[2,n+1]$<l and secondly that for the pair each of these distinct numbers is associated with, we want to choose a pair from $[n+2,3n+1]$ where the pair is as spread out as possible and its size corresponds to the size of the small number it is associated with.

We claim we can split them into triples each with a distinct number from $[2,n+1]$. The main idea is we basically want to partition $[n+2,3n+1]$ into intervals of length $2k$, where then we can choose pairs from that interval with the same difference. For example, for $n=3$, we have the distinct numbers $2,3,4$, and we partition $[5,10]$ into $[5,6]$ and $[7,10]$ which would give triples $(2,5,6), (3,7,9), (4,8,10)$.

Mark $n+2$ with a dot, and continue recursively marking $\lceil k/2 \rceil$ until $2$ is marked (e.g. for $n=3$, we mark $5, 3, 2$). Then label all these marks in ascending order, $s_1, \dots s_N, s_{N+1}$ where $s_1 = 2, s_{N+1} = n+2$. We have that for $1\leq i \leq N$ that $s_{i+1} = 2s_i -1$ or $2s_i - 2$, except in case $n=2$ where $s_2 = 3$.

Now we form the triples by splitting into the aforementioned intervals: Let $1 \leq i \leq N$, and let $0 \leq j < s_{i+1} - s_{i}$. For each $j$ we form:
\[ (s_i + j, n + 2s_i - 2 + j, n + s_{i+1} + s_i - 2 + j) \]We can verify that every single number is used distinctly in this construction of triples, then by some algebraic bash ($n \geq s_i$ by the way) we can prove every triple satisfies the inequalities for obtuse triangles.
This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by mathfun07, Mar 17, 2025, 12:28 AM
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