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k a March Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Mar 2, 2025
March is the month for State MATHCOUNTS competitions! Kudos to everyone who participated in their local chapter competitions and best of luck to all going to State! Join us on March 11th for a Math Jam devoted to our favorite Chapter competition problems! Are you interested in training for MATHCOUNTS? Be sure to check out our AMC 8/MATHCOUNTS Basics and Advanced courses.

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Do you have plans this summer? There are so many options to fit your schedule and goals whether attending a summer camp or taking online classes, it can be a great break from the routine of the school year. Check out our summer courses at AoPS Online, or if you want a math or language arts class that doesn’t have homework, but is an enriching summer experience, our AoPS Virtual Campus summer camps may be just the ticket! We are expanding our locations for our AoPS Academies across the country with 15 locations so far and new campuses opening in Saratoga CA, Johns Creek GA, and the Upper West Side NY. Check out this page for summer camp information.

Be sure to mark your calendars for the following events:
[list][*]March 5th (Wednesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, HCSSiM Math Jam 2025. Amber Verser, Assistant Director of the Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics, will host an information session about HCSSiM, a summer program for high school students.
[*]March 6th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar on Math Competitions from elementary through high school. Join us for an enlightening session that demystifies the world of math competitions and helps you make informed decisions about your contest journey.
[*]March 11th (Tuesday), 4:30pm PT/7:30pm ET, 2025 MATHCOUNTS Chapter Discussion MATH JAM. AoPS instructors will discuss some of their favorite problems from the MATHCOUNTS Chapter Competition. All are welcome!
[*]March 13th (Thursday), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Free Webinar about Summer Camps at the Virtual Campus. Transform your summer into an unforgettable learning adventure! From elementary through high school, we offer dynamic summer camps featuring topics in mathematics, language arts, and competition preparation - all designed to fit your schedule and ignite your passion for learning.[/list]
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0 replies
jlacosta
Mar 2, 2025
0 replies
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k i A Letter to MSM
Arr0w   23
N Sep 19, 2022 by scannose
Greetings.

I have seen many posts talking about commonly asked questions, such as finding the value of $0^0$, $\frac{1}{0}$,$\frac{0}{0}$, $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$, why $0.999...=1$ or even expressions of those terms combined as if that would make them defined. I have made this post to answer these questions once and for all, and I politely ask everyone to link this post to threads that are talking about this issue.
[list]
[*]Firstly, the case of $0^0$. It is usually regarded that $0^0=1$, not because this works numerically but because it is convenient to define it this way. You will see the convenience of defining other undefined things later on in this post.

[*]What about $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$? The issue here is that $\infty$ isn't even rigorously defined in this expression. What exactly do we mean by $\infty$? Unless the example in question is put in context in a formal manner, then we say that $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is meaningless.

[*]What about $\frac{1}{0}$? Suppose that $x=\frac{1}{0}$. Then we would have $x\cdot 0=0=1$, absurd. A more rigorous treatment of the idea is that $\lim_{x\to0}\frac{1}{x}$ does not exist in the first place, although you will see why in a calculus course. So the point is that $\frac{1}{0}$ is undefined.

[*]What about if $0.99999...=1$? An article from brilliant has a good explanation. Alternatively, you can just use a geometric series. Notice that
\begin{align*} \sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^n}&=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{1}{10^n}=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\biggr(\frac{1}{10}\biggr)^n=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{1-\frac{1}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{\frac{9}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{1}{9}\biggr)=\boxed{1} \end{align*}
[*]What about $\frac{0}{0}$? Usually this is considered to be an indeterminate form, but I would also wager that this is also undefined.
[/list]
Hopefully all of these issues and their corollaries are finally put to rest. Cheers.

2nd EDIT (6/14/22): Since I originally posted this, it has since blown up so I will try to add additional information per the request of users in the thread below.

INDETERMINATE VS UNDEFINED

What makes something indeterminate? As you can see above, there are many things that are indeterminate. While definitions might vary slightly, it is the consensus that the following definition holds: A mathematical expression is be said to be indeterminate if it is not definitively or precisely determined. So how does this make, say, something like $0/0$ indeterminate? In analysis (the theory behind calculus and beyond), limits involving an algebraic combination of functions in an independent variable may often be evaluated by replacing these functions by their limits. However, if the expression obtained after this substitution does not provide sufficient information to determine the original limit, then the expression is called an indeterminate form. For example, we could say that $0/0$ is an indeterminate form.

But we need to more specific, this is still ambiguous. An indeterminate form is a mathematical expression involving at most two of $0$, $1$ or $\infty$, obtained by applying the algebraic limit theorem (a theorem in analysis, look this up for details) in the process of attempting to determine a limit, which fails to restrict that limit to one specific value or infinity, and thus does not determine the limit being calculated. This is why it is called indeterminate. Some examples of indeterminate forms are
\[0/0, \infty/\infty, \infty-\infty, \infty \times 0\]etc etc. So what makes something undefined? In the broader scope, something being undefined refers to an expression which is not assigned an interpretation or a value. A function is said to be undefined for points outside its domain. For example, the function $f:\mathbb{R}^{+}\cup\{0\}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}$ given by the mapping $x\mapsto \sqrt{x}$ is undefined for $x<0$. On the other hand, $1/0$ is undefined because dividing by $0$ is not defined in arithmetic by definition. In other words, something is undefined when it is not defined in some mathematical context.

WHEN THE WATERS GET MUDDIED

So with this notion of indeterminate and undefined, things get convoluted. First of all, just because something is indeterminate does not mean it is not undefined. For example $0/0$ is considered both indeterminate and undefined (but in the context of a limit then it is considered in indeterminate form). Additionally, this notion of something being undefined also means that we can define it in some way. To rephrase, this means that technically, we can make something that is undefined to something that is defined as long as we define it. I'll show you what I mean.

One example of making something undefined into something defined is the extended real number line, which we define as
\[\overline{\mathbb{R}}=\mathbb{R}\cup \{-\infty,+\infty\}.\]So instead of treating infinity as an idea, we define infinity (positively and negatively, mind you) as actual numbers in the reals. The advantage of doing this is for two reasons. The first is because we can turn this thing into a totally ordered set. Specifically, we can let $-\infty\le a\le \infty$ for each $a\in\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ which means that via this order topology each subset has an infimum and supremum and $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ is therefore compact. While this is nice from an analytic standpoint, extending the reals in this way can allow for interesting arithmetic! In $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ it is perfectly OK to say that,
\begin{align*} a + \infty = \infty + a & = \infty, & a & \neq -\infty \\ a - \infty = -\infty + a & = -\infty, & a & \neq \infty \\ a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty] \\ a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \mp\infty, & a & \in [-\infty, 0) \\ \frac{a}{\pm\infty} & = 0, & a & \in \mathbb{R} \\ \frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty) \\ \frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \mp\infty, & a & \in (-\infty, 0). \end{align*}So addition, multiplication, and division are all defined nicely. However, notice that we have some indeterminate forms here which are also undefined,
\[\infty-\infty,\frac{\pm\infty}{\pm\infty},\frac{\pm\infty}{0},0\cdot \pm\infty.\]So while we define certain things, we also left others undefined/indeterminate in the process! However, in the context of measure theory it is common to define $\infty \times 0=0$ as greenturtle3141 noted below. I encourage to reread what he wrote, it's great stuff! As you may notice, though, dividing by $0$ is undefined still! Is there a place where it isn't? Kind of. To do this, we can extend the complex numbers! More formally, we can define this extension as
\[\mathbb{C}^*=\mathbb{C}\cup\{\tilde{\infty}\}\]which we call the Riemann Sphere (it actually forms a sphere, pretty cool right?). As a note, $\tilde{\infty}$ means complex infinity, since we are in the complex plane now. Here's the catch: division by $0$ is allowed here! In fact, we have
\[\frac{z}{0}=\tilde{\infty},\frac{z}{\tilde{\infty}}=0.\]where $\tilde{\infty}/\tilde{\infty}$ and $0/0$ are left undefined. We also have
\begin{align*} z+\tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne -\infty\\ z\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne 0 \end{align*}Furthermore, we actually have some nice properties with multiplication that we didn't have before. In $\mathbb{C}^*$ it holds that
\[\tilde{\infty}\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}\]but $\tilde{\infty}-\tilde{\infty}$ and $0\times \tilde{\infty}$ are left as undefined (unless there is an explicit need to change that somehow). One could define the projectively extended reals as we did with $\mathbb{C}^*$, by defining them as
\[{\widehat {\mathbb {R} }}=\mathbb {R} \cup \{\infty \}.\]They behave in a similar way to the Riemann Sphere, with division by $0$ also being allowed with the same indeterminate forms (in addition to some other ones).
23 replies
Arr0w
Feb 11, 2022
scannose
Sep 19, 2022
J
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k i Marathon Threads
LauraZed   0
Jul 2, 2019
Due to excessive spam and inappropriate posts, we have locked the Prealgebra and Beginning Algebra threads.

We will either unlock these threads once we've cleaned them up or start new ones, but for now, do not start new marathon threads for these subjects. Any new marathon threads started while this announcement is up will be immediately deleted.
0 replies
LauraZed
Jul 2, 2019
0 replies
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k i Basic Forum Rules and Info (Read before posting)
jellymoop   368
N May 16, 2018 by harry1234
f (Reminder: Do not post Alcumus or class homework questions on this forum. Instructions below.) f
Welcome to the Middle School Math Forum! Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the rules.

Overview:
[list]
[*] When you're posting a new topic with a math problem, give the topic a detailed title that includes the subject of the problem (not just "easy problem" or "nice problem")
[*] Stay on topic and be courteous.
[*] Hide solutions!
[*] If you see an inappropriate post in this forum, simply report the post and a moderator will deal with it. Don't make your own post telling people they're not following the rules - that usually just makes the issue worse.
[*] When you post a question that you need help solving, post what you've attempted so far and not just the question. We are here to learn from each other, not to do your homework. :P
[*] Avoid making posts just to thank someone - you can use the upvote function instead
[*] Don't make a new reply just to repeat yourself or comment on the quality of others' posts; instead, post when you have a new insight or question. You can also edit your post if it's the most recent and you want to add more information.
[*] Avoid bumping old posts.
[*] Use GameBot to post alcumus questions.
[*] If you need general MATHCOUNTS/math competition advice, check out the threads below.
[*] Don't post other users' real names.
[*] Advertisements are not allowed. You can advertise your forum on your profile with a link, on your blog, and on user-created forums that permit forum advertisements.
[/list]

Here are links to more detailed versions of the rules. These are from the older forums, so you can overlook "Classroom math/Competition math only" instructions.
Posting Guidelines
Update on Basic Forum Rules
What belongs on this forum?
How do I write a thorough solution?
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How do I study for mathcounts?
Mathcounts FAQ and resources
Mathcounts and how to learn

As always, if you have any questions, you can PM me or any of the other Middle School Moderators. Once again, if you see spam, it would help a lot if you filed a report instead of responding :)

Marathons!
Relays might be a better way to describe it, but these threads definitely go the distance! One person starts off by posting a problem, and the next person comes up with a solution and a new problem for another user to solve. Here's some of the frequently active marathons running in this forum:
[list][*]Algebra
[*]Prealgebra
[*]Proofs
[*]Factoring
[*]Geometry
[*]Counting & Probability
[*]Number Theory[/list]
Some of these haven't received attention in a while, but these are the main ones for their respective subjects. Rather than starting a new marathon, please give the existing ones a shot first.

You can also view marathons via the Marathon tag.

Think this list is incomplete or needs changes? Let the mods know and we'll take a look.
368 replies
jellymoop
May 8, 2015
harry1234
May 16, 2018
J
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D1010 : How it is possible ?
Dattier   13
N 30 minutes ago by Dattier
Source: les dattes à Dattier
Is it true that$$\forall n \in \mathbb N^*, (24^n \times B \mod A) \mod 2 = 0 $$?

A=1728400904217815186787639216753921417860004366580219212750904
024377969478249664644267971025952530803647043121025959018172048
336953969062151534282052863307398281681465366665810775710867856
720572225880311472925624694183944650261079955759251769111321319
421445397848518597584590900951222557860592579005088853698315463
815905425095325508106272375728975

B=2275643401548081847207782760491442295266487354750527085289354
965376765188468052271190172787064418854789322484305145310707614
546573398182642923893780527037224143380886260467760991228567577
953725945090125797351518670892779468968705801340068681556238850
340398780828104506916965606659768601942798676554332768254089685
307970609932846902
13 replies
Dattier
Mar 10, 2025
Dattier
30 minutes ago
J
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Interesting inequality
sqing   1
N 30 minutes ago by sqing
Source: Own
Let $ a,b\geq 2 . $ Prove that
$$ (a^2-1)(b^2-1) (1-ab)+\frac{27}{8}a^2b^2\leq 27$$$$ (a^2-1)(b^2-1)(1-a^2b^2 )+\frac{81}{4}a^2b^2 \leq 189$$$$ (a^2-1)(b^2-1)(1-a^2b^2 )+ 162 ab \leq 513$$$$ (a^2-1)(b^2-1) (1-a^2b^2 )+21 a^2b^2\leq \frac{3219}{16}$$$$ (a^2-1)(b^2-1) (1-ab)+\frac{27}{8}a^2b^2\leq\frac{415+61\sqrt{61}}{18}$$
1 reply
sqing
an hour ago
sqing
30 minutes ago
J
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Minimal Grouping in a Complete Graph
swynca   1
N 40 minutes ago by swynca
Source: 2025 Turkey TST P1
In a complete graph with $2025$ vertices, each edge has one of the colors $r_1$, $r_2$, or $r_3$. For each $i = 1,2,3$, if the $2025$ vertices can be divided into $a_i$ groups such that any two vertices connected by an edge of color $r_i$ are in different groups, find the minimum possible value of $a_1 + a_2 + a_3$.
1 reply
1 viewing
swynca
3 hours ago
swynca
40 minutes ago
J
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Nice FE as the First Day Finale
swynca   1
N an hour ago by swynca
Source: 2025 Turkey TST P3
Find all $f: \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}$ such that, for all $x,y \in \mathbb{R}-\{0\}$,
$$ f(x) \neq 0 \text{ and } \frac{f(x)}{f(y)} + \frac{f(y)}{f(x)} - f \left( \frac{x}{y}-\frac{y}{x} \right) =2 $$
1 reply
+1 w
swynca
3 hours ago
swynca
an hour ago
J
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mathcon question
GlitchyBoy   45
N 5 hours ago by AVY2024
Hey, I was just wondering if anybody here takes the MathCon Competition or not. And if so, what's the best way to get the highest score possible?
Thank you! and pls respond
update: it did NOT go well i got 220:sob:
i was not locked in and was going hella slow
45 replies
GlitchyBoy
Mar 7, 2025
AVY2024
5 hours ago
J
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AMC 8 Help
krish6_9   11
N Today at 12:59 AM by giratina3
Hey guys
im in new jersey a third grader who got 12 on amc 8. I want to make mop in high school and mathcounts nationals in 6th grade is that realistic how should I get better
11 replies
krish6_9
Yesterday at 1:20 PM
giratina3
Today at 12:59 AM
J
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Geometry nationals problem
PenguFish   5
N Today at 12:14 AM by ibmo0907
I got Click to reveal hidden text and I just guessed and checked through most of it, also idek if I can post this (lol) but if i can, please help me!
5 replies
PenguFish
Yesterday at 6:24 AM
ibmo0907
Today at 12:14 AM
J
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Amc10 prep question
Shadow6885   13
N Today at 12:09 AM by RandomMathGuy500
My question is how much of the geo and IA textbooks is relevant to AMC 10?
13 replies
Shadow6885
Yesterday at 6:20 AM
RandomMathGuy500
Today at 12:09 AM
J
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k Is your state listed?
Chatelet1   408
N Yesterday at 10:59 PM by Eddie_tiger
Multiple states have announced their top students who will advance to the 2025 MATHCOUNTS National Competition in May:

• From Alabama: Henry Gladden of Mobile, Austin Lu of Birmingham, Jessie Shi of Vestavia, and Minlu Wang-He of Auburn.

• From Arkansas: Ryan Fan of Fayetteville, Vivek Kalyankar of Fayetteville, Evan Ning of Fayetteville and Charles Yao of Conway.

• From Connecticut: Hayden Hughes of Newtown, Ethan Shi of Riverside, Alex Svoronos of Greenwich and Elaine Zhou of Hamden.

• From the Department of Defense: Narmin Guliyeva of Ankara, Turkey; Taeyul Kim of Manana, Bahrain; Nathan Liang of Wiesbaden, Germany; and Lucas Sze of Okinawa, Japan.

• From Hawaii: Taehwan Jeon, Hilohak Kwak, Isaac Qian and Thien Tran, all from Honolulu.

• From Kansas: Haidan Anderson & Jayden Xue of Overland Park, Christopher Spencer of Manhattan, and Ruby Jiang of Lawrence.

• From Maine: Ana Kanitkar & Connor Kirkham of Falmouth, Anna McClary of Hermon and Poppy Sandin of Bar Harbor.

• From Massachusetts: Eric Huang of Acton, Shlok Mukund & Brandon Ni of Lexington, and Soham Samanta of Medford.

• From Missouri: Lucas Lai of Columbia, Kevin Shi of St. Louis, Charles Yong & Jay Zhou of Chesterfield.

• From Montana: Titus Gilder of Missoula, Otis Heggem of Billings, Kaleb Houtz of Great Falls and Evan Newcomer of Missoula.

• From Nevada: Solomon Dumont of Las Vegas, Aaron Lei of Reno, Leeoz Nebat of Henderson and Maxwell Tsai of Las Vegas.

• From New Mexico: Mark Goldman, Daniel He, Iris Huang and Patrick McArdle, all from Albuquerque.

• From New York: Derrick Chen of Great Neck, Victor Yang of Great Neck, Hanru Zhang of Jericho and Ryan Zhang of Jericho.

• From Rhode Island: Kahlan Anderson of the Wheeler School, Julian Bernhoft & Colin Hegstrom of Providence, and Theodora Watson of Barrington.

• From South Carolina: Yukai Hu of Elgin, Justin Peng of Clemson, Geonhoo Shim of Columbia, and Aaron Wang of Mount Pleasant.

• From South Dakota: Seth Chaplin & Maxwell Wang of Sioux Falls, Laukia Gundewar of Aberdeen, and Cohwen Heimann of Aberdeen.

• From Texas: Shaheem Samsudeen & Ayush Narayan of Plano, Nathan Liu of Richardson, and James Stewart of Southlake.

• From Vermont: Mohid Ali of South Burlington, Vivek Chadive of South Burlington, Joshua Kratze of St. Johnsbury and Albert Zhang of South Burlington.

• From Wisconsin: August Reeder & Lucy Chen of Fitchburg, Junhao Feng of Milwaukee, and Jiyan Singh of River Hills.

===
Updated on 3/15/2025:

• From Colorado: Noah Liu, Christopher Zhu, Neo Luo, and Andrew Zhao.

• From Florida: Arnav Bhatia, Gnaneswar Peddesugari, Edwin Gao, and Rananjay Parmar.

• From Indiana: Roland Li, Hrishabh Bhowmik, Sophia Chen, and Arjun Raman.

• From Kentucky: Sri Shubhaan Vulava, Joyce Liu, Victor Gong, and Brandon Tedja.

• From Maryland: Eric Xie, Angie Zhu, Roger Huang, and Leo Su.

• From Michigan: Arnav Vunnam, Eric Jin, Akshaj Malraj, and Chaithanya Budida.

• From Minnesota: Ahmed Ilyasov, Will Masanz, Anshdeep Singh, and Branden Qiao.

• From New Jersey: Ethan Imanuel, Advait Joshi, Jay Wang, and Easton Wei.

• From North Carolina: Shivank Chintalpati, Steven Wang, Lucas Li, and Leo Hong.

• From Ohio: Henry Lu, Andy Mo, Archishmen Dey, and Caleb Tan.

• From Oregon: Sophia Han, Kevin Cheng, Garud Shah, and Ryan Zhang.
408 replies
Chatelet1
Mar 8, 2025
Eddie_tiger
Yesterday at 10:59 PM
J
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probability pentagon contains center
JohnStuckey   3
N Yesterday at 10:18 PM by sadas123
Here's a cute problem:

Consider a regular pentagon. Choose 3 points along the perimeter of the pentagon, and form a triangle with those 3 points. What is the probability that this triangle contains the center of the pentagon.
3 replies
JohnStuckey
Yesterday at 6:27 PM
sadas123
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
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ohio mathcounts state
Owinner   38
N Yesterday at 9:35 PM by Andyluo
what is the cutoff for cdr for ohio? Is ohio a competitve state?
38 replies
Owinner
Mar 11, 2025
Andyluo
Yesterday at 9:35 PM
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What was your Mathcounts Chant?
ilovebender   59
N Yesterday at 9:32 PM by wikjay
Hi, I wanted to ask everyone, before the written competition, each state had to do their chant. What chant did you and your team make xd!

Im in WV and I think we did the least cringe chant, and it goes like this:

(After one person says something, the other person following waits ~2 seconds, and then says their line)
P1: Hi
P2: Hi
P3: Hi
P4: Bye

Lol if you were at the national competition you prob remember.
59 replies
ilovebender
May 12, 2022
wikjay
Yesterday at 9:32 PM
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Problem of the week
evt917   26
N Yesterday at 9:25 PM by PikaPika999
Whenever possible, I will be posting problems twice a week! They will be roughly of AMC 8 difficulty. Have fun solving! Also, these problems are all written by myself!

First problem:

$20^{16}$ has how many digits?
26 replies
evt917
Mar 5, 2025
PikaPika999
Yesterday at 9:25 PM
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Imposible
maxamc   1
N Yesterday at 8:16 PM by maromex
if 1+1 is 2 then what is the square root of 4 with 100 significant figures?
1 reply
maxamc
Yesterday at 8:08 PM
maromex
Yesterday at 8:16 PM
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Exquality
giangtruong13   2
N Yesterday at 8:22 AM by lbh_qys
Let $x,y,z>0$ satisfy that: $(xz)^2+(yz)^2+1 \leq 3z$. Find the minimum value: $$P=\frac{1}{(x+1)^2}+\frac{8}{(y+3)^2}+\frac{4z^2}{(1+2z)^2}$$
2 replies
giangtruong13
Yesterday at 7:33 AM
lbh_qys
Yesterday at 8:22 AM
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Exquality
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giangtruong13
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giangtruong13
#1 h  Yesterday at 7:33 AM
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Let $x,y,z>0$ satisfy that: $(xz)^2+(yz)^2+1 \leq 3z$. Find the minimum value: $$P=\frac{1}{(x+1)^2}+\frac{8}{(y+3)^2}+\frac{4z^2}{(1+2z)^2}$$
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sqing
41061 posts
sqing
#2 h  Yesterday at 7:40 AM
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Let $ x,y,z>0 $ and $ (xz)^2+(yz)^2+1 \leq 3z $. Prove that$$\frac{1}{(x+1)^2}+\frac{8}{(y+3)^2}+\frac{4z^2}{(1+2z)^2}\geq 1$$Good.
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lbh_qys
398 posts
lbh_qys
#3 h  Yesterday at 8:22 AM
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By C-S,

$$ P \ge \frac{(2+4+2)^2}{4(x+1)^2+2(y+3)^2+\left(1+\frac{2}{z}\right)^2} = \frac{64}{8\frac{(xz)^2+(yz)^2+1-3z}{z^2}-4(x-1)^2-6(y-1)^2-7\left(\frac{1}{z}-2\right)^2+64} \ge 1, $$
and $P = 1$ when $(x,y,z) = \left(1,1,\frac 12\right)$.
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