Deciding between Ross and HCSSiM

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1800 posts

#1 h Apr 18, 2025, 11:49 AM • 12 Y

Y by Cattus1221, lpieleanu, jkim0656, Alex-131, justJen, EpicBird08, littlefox_amc, blueprimes, deduck, Exponent11, alan9535, aidan0626

Hey! I got accepted into Ross Indiana, and I think I'll probably also get accepted into HCSSiM. I've been looking between the two camps, and I'm trying to decide which one to go to -- both seem like really fun options.

Instead of trying to explain my personal preferences and thought processes, I thought it might be a good idea to ask the community for their personal opinions on these camps. What are some things that you like or dislike about both camps? (Whether it be through personal experience or by word-of-mouth, but please specify if it's just something you've heard)

This will probably help me be more informed on making a final decision, so I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance!

This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by akliu, Apr 18, 2025, 6:20 PM
Reason: probably definitely

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Inaaya

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Inaaya

#2 h Apr 18, 2025, 2:32 PM • 3 Y

Y by pi-ay, Exponent11, RocketScientist

Imagine being so orz you have to choose between two extremely prestigious math camps to attend

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boaway123

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boaway123

#3 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:01 PM • 7 Y

Y by Danielzh, lpieleanu, Alex-131, akliu, Exponent11, alan9535, palindrome868

Luckily I attended both of these programs, so I can give you some insight. However, things might have changed since I attended these programs a while back, but for the most part it seems accurate from what I've heard recently about them both.

HCSSiM starts off with three-week “workshops,” where you learn the core curriculum — first semester undergraduate courses in number theory, abstract algebra, combinatorics/graph theory, and set theory. These courses are quite comprehensive and will leave you with a solid background for more advanced mathematics and the second half of the program. Although the workshop will start off easy and things will seem familiar to you (for example, most of workshop was familiar to my friends and I), the problem sets are quite fun and do get very challenging. In addition, HCSSiM is very intensive — four hours of workshop in the morning, one hour of Prime Time Theorem (which are daily talks given on advanced math topics. Some examples I remember are knot invariants, Minkowski’s theorem, math behind machine learning, and many graph theory/combinatorics ones ), three hours of problem set solving in the evening. In addition, during the first three weeks, there’s usually a quasi (i.e, course) on another core math subject, I believe complex analysis or point-set topology.

The next three weeks of HCSSiM are when you split into Maxis and Minis. You choose one Maxi course and two Mini courses. The Maxi course usually corresponds to a one semester course in the given subject, while the Minis are shorter and hence mainly for exposure. It’s basically guaranteed that you will find something (if not everything!) completely new to you, so there should be no worries about being bored or not challenged enough. Some examples of Maxi courses from recent years (IIRC) are information theory, combinatorial geometry, algebraic topology, topological graph theory, an axiomatic approach to probability, dynamical systems, and many more. Maxi is a lot of fun, and again both the lectures and problem sets are super engaging. The minis are also fun, short courses (very similar to the format of Mathcamp classes). Again there’s a ton of variety, off the top of my head, Galois theory, algebraic geometry, algebraic combinatorics, peg solitaire, category theory, and many more.

I also attended Ross, which I personally didn’t enjoy as much as HCSSiM. I do believe, however, that Ross is a very solid introduction to proof-based mathematics and introductory number theory. I did have a lot of background coming into Ross/HCSSiM, and so I honestly didn’t learn much from Ross. Also, Ross only has one 1 hour daily lecture on number theory, and the entire rest of the day is left to work on the problem sets, which start from the very axioms. There’s also some advanced courses, colloquia, dorm lectures, etc, but tbh the psets consume most of your time, and the focus most definitely isn’t on advanced courses.

So, I’d recommend you to attend HCSSiM if you are looking to learn A LOT of super cool math while also becoming very comfortable with the core (intro number theory, abs alg, set theory, graph theory). However, I’d recommend you to attend Ross if you want to solely hone your proof-writing background and have a very axiomatic approach to number theory.

This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by boaway123, Apr 18, 2025, 6:46 PM

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akliu

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akliu

#4 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:12 PM

Y by

I've heard that HCSSiM was more "chill" than Ross was, and that it serves as a really good camp for Junior/Senior year when you're transitioning into the college application grind and you have a lot less time for stuff. How true would you say that is -- do you think any camp of the two is particularly more suited to my grade level (10th), or not really?

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boaway123

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boaway123

#5 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:19 PM • 4 Y

Y by akliu, lpieleanu, Alex-131, alan9535

Definitely not, as I mentioned, HCSSiM is very intensive. Ross is probably the most chill camp in my opinion, since you don't really have to do anything. There were many unmotivated people who solely came for college apps in my year, and I know several people in my year at Ross who did less than 4 problem sets through out the entire program (however, there are many good and passionate people also lol). In my year of HCSSiM, everyone was very passionate, motivated, and friendly.

Again, grade doesn't really mean much, moreso your mathematical maturity. If you are comfortable with proofs then I'd highly recommend going to HCSSiM, but if you are looking to gain more exposure to proof-based mathematics then go to Ross.

Also, wrt social activities, HCSSiM has a lot more fun activities going on. Ross you can basically always hang out with your friends, but theres not really any "organized" fun stuff going on outside of Ultimate and card games. At HCSSiM, we had things like a Boston trip, hiking, a lot of activities at the director's house, nail painting, contra dancing, crochet, t-shirt painting, ice cream, movie nights, Ultimate games, Yellow Pigs day, etc. This might be highly dependent on my year also, but HCSSiM seemed a lot more open and friendly (everybody talked to everybody), while Ross seemed to dissolve into cliques very quickly.

This post has been edited 3 times. Last edited by boaway123, Apr 18, 2025, 4:38 PM

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akliu

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akliu

#6 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:28 PM

Y by

By being comfortable with proofs, would you say having exposure to olympiad math would be sufficient? Stuff like proof techniques, but not that much work doing research or stuff like that.

Quote:

Ross is probably the most chill camp in my opinion, since you don't really have to do anything. There were many unmotivated people who solely came for college apps in my year, and I know several people in my year at Ross who did less than 4 problem sets through out the entire program (however, there are many good and passionate people also lol).

That's great to know; this is making me want to go to HCSSiM a ton lol

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jkim0656

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jkim0656

#7 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:34 PM

Y by

how are these ppl so orz that they cant choose which math camp to go to :omighty:

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boaway123

18 posts

boaway123

#8 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:36 PM • 2 Y

Y by akliu, Danielzh

akliu wrote:

By being comfortable with proofs, would you say having exposure to olympiad math would be sufficient? Stuff like proof techniques, but not that much work doing research or stuff like that.

Quote:

Ross is probably the most chill camp in my opinion, since you don't really have to do anything. There were many unmotivated people who solely came for college apps in my year, and I know several people in my year at Ross who did less than 4 problem sets through out the entire program (however, there are many good and passionate people also lol).

That's great to know; this is making me want to go to HCSSiM a ton lol

Yea, essentially (definitely not research lol). Just exposure and a solid level of comfort with things you'd find in a standard "Discrete Math" course. Like basics of set theory (union, intersection, subset, power set, etc), functions (injective/bijective/surjective, composition, inverses), proof techniques (direct proof, contrapositive proof, contradiction, casework, induction, disproof), basic number theory (divisibility, primes, Euclidean algorithm, modular arithmetic), and basic combinatorics (php, counting arguments).

You definitely don't need to know all of these, but the point just was that if you are even somewhat comfortable with these, then HCSSiM is a better option than Ross. I thought myself that I was quite familiar with these topics (as I was well-versed with Olympiads and also took a college-level Discrete Math course), but even then, HCSSiM's workshop was still a lot of fun and quite challenging.

This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by boaway123, Apr 18, 2025, 4:43 PM

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akliu

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akliu

#9 h Apr 18, 2025, 4:50 PM

Y by

That sounds really fun, thanks for all the help c:

I'd definitely like to also hear a different opinion though, did anyone like Ross more than HCSSiM?

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Danielzh

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Danielzh

#10 h Apr 18, 2025, 5:00 PM

Y by

In terms of fun-ness, I looked over the HCSSiM program last year, and it seemed very fun! Plus I also visited the campus in person (i was accepted but couldn't go) and it's really, really peaceful, open, and honestly perfect for a math camp. The only downside from a first impression I got was that it seemed like there were few buildings you can actually study/do math in — I'm sure there's more, it's just what I saw in one hour or so.

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boaway123

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boaway123

#11 h Apr 18, 2025, 5:16 PM • 1 Y

Y by Danielzh

Danielzh wrote:

In terms of fun-ness, I looked over the HCSSiM program last year, and it seemed very fun! Plus I also visited the campus in person (i was accepted but couldn't go) and it's really, really peaceful, open, and honestly perfect for a math camp. The only downside from a first impression I got was that it seemed like there were few buildings you can actually study/do math in — I'm sure there's more, it's just what I saw in one hour or so.

Yea, campus is also very beautiful. The dorms are singles too and bathrooms are just singles that you share with only three other people.

Most people used the Student Center (Kern) to study, which is a new, air-conditioned building with food, tables, bean bags, whiteboards, etc. There's also a couple other nooks that you can study or meet up with your friends in, I don't really remember the names lol but usually it's easy to discover them

.

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MathWinner121

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MathWinner121

#12 h Apr 18, 2025, 5:46 PM

Y by

akliu wrote:

Hey! I got accepted into Ross Indiana, and I think I'll probably also get accepted into HCSSiM. I've been looking between the two camps, and I'm trying to decide which one to go to -- both seem like really fun options.

Instead of trying to explain my personal preferences and thought processes, I thought it might be a good idea to ask the community for their personal opinions on these camps. What are some things that you like or dislike about both camps? (Whether it be through personal experience or by word-of-mouth, but please specify if it's just something you've heard)

This will probably help me be more informed on making a final decision, so I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance!

Imagine being so orz.

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rushingriver

112 posts

rushingriver

#13 h Apr 18, 2025, 5:55 PM • 4 Y

Y by akliu, boaway123, alan9535, mathfan2020

hello! i'm seconding everything that the other poster has mentioned as a participant of both of these programs. i personally, also enjoyed HCSSiM a good deal more, both the math and the environment/people. more on that, i'd say that the structure (and lack of) of HCSSiM/Ross were a big factor in my experiences. this isn't inherently a good/bad thing, but just because HCSSiM has 8+ hours of collaborative math time/classes built into its schedule, you'll spend so much more time with other students in the program. i feel like the people at Ross weren't as connected, just because we were only spending like an together in morning lecture. i also 100% agree with the "everyone talks to everyone" nature of HCSSiM vs the more disjointed social scene at Ross, this was noticeable in my years as well. i also feel like my friendships at HCSSiM were a lot stronger, even two years out i'm still in touch with those friends. that said, at the end of the day, both programs will surround you with amazing, like-minded peers, but the flavor of the interactions and communities were definitely different.

math-wise, i'd agree that HCSSiM offers a lot more breadth, i learned so much math that i had previously never even heard of. Ross is more "traditional", if that's the right word; you get a really in-depth look at number theory from the axioms up. the problem sets do a great job of this, and it really helped me appreciate number theory more in general - instead of seeing the polished final results of theorems or formulas, you get to "get your hands dirty" in proving them, which is really awesome.

and just a bit on the campuses: Rose Hulman and Hampshire College are both really nice, open, walkable places. RHIT has a ton of study areas, you can basically go anywhere in the lecture hall building to pset and work, and a beautiful building called the Union (with a foosball and pool table!!) Hampshire College is also really close to Atkins, this really awesome farm market with an ice cream store attached.

lastly, big congrats on this achievement - rest assured that you really can't go wrong with either of them, both are wonderful programs!

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akliu

1800 posts

akliu

#14 h Apr 18, 2025, 6:30 PM

Y by

Thank you so much for your input!!! This is getting me super excited for this summer C:
As another final question:

I discussed my ideas with my parents; I'm completely for going to HCSSiM over Ross, and I have been for a couple weeks ever since I got that really nice admissions email. However, they keep bringing up the idea that Ross is more prestigious than HCSSiM, and that I should go to Ross instead.

Don't worry, I don't need that character development talk

I personally don't value going to a more prestigious place over something that I find more valuable, so they can complain all they want. However, are these claims about prestige even true at all in the first place? I did some Googling just so they could stop making this point, but I couldn't find any actual source that supported this, aside from the general personal memory that I knew of Ross before HCSSiM.

This post has been edited 5 times. Last edited by akliu, Apr 18, 2025, 6:33 PM
Reason: wow i suck at writing

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KevinChen_Yay

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KevinChen_Yay

#15 h Apr 18, 2025, 6:34 PM • 1 Y

Y by akliu

@above good decision bro, have fun! and maybe see u at HCSSiM if i make it and decide to go

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boaway123

18 posts

boaway123

#16 h Apr 18, 2025, 6:43 PM • 1 Y

Y by akliu

akliu wrote:

Thank you so much for your input!!! This is getting me super excited for this summer C:
As another final question:

I discussed my ideas with my parents; I'm completely for going to HCSSiM over Ross, and I have been for a couple weeks ever since I got that really nice admissions email. However, they keep bringing up the idea that Ross is more prestigious than HCSSiM, and that I should go to Ross instead.

Don't worry, I don't need that character development talk

I personally don't value going to a more prestigious place over something that I find more valuable, so they can complain all they want. However, are these claims about prestige even true at all in the first place? I did some Googling just so they could stop making this point, but I couldn't find any actual source that supported this, aside from the general personal memory that I knew of Ross before HCSSiM.

I don't think so at all. I'm not sure how "prestige" is defined exactly, but if it's college acceptances, then based on the last four years of the programs, the placement for Ross and HCSSiM are near identical (I think HCSSiM's placements are better overall). In addition, Ross is a bigger program and has a higher acceptance rate, while HCSSiM's acceptance rate is quite low. Generally, {HCSSiM, Canada/USA Mathcamp, SUMaC, PROMYS, Ross} are all on the same level of "prestige" with respect to college apps -- all are well-recognized as very good math programs.

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clearcrystal1900

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clearcrystal1900

#17 h Apr 18, 2025, 7:13 PM • 1 Y

Y by akliu

Just a short response from me since I think boaway123 gives a lot of helpful context already.

I went to both, HCSSiM in 2022 and Ross in 2023. For me personally, I think if you're not sure what you want to do with math yet, go to HCSSiM. You will meet those in a similar situation -- curious and eager to learn, but perhaps unsure if you want to seriously research math or maybe explore some adjacent field. HCSSiM is great in that it's very well- structured for this purpose. They sit you down and walk through so much cool math, making sure you're always engaged. There are also lots of well-organized bonding activities which I wish Ross had more of.

Ross is for the serious and disciplined math student. The entire program is centered around problem sets, which they don't force you to do -- what you put in is exactly what you get out. There's only one hour of lecture everyday (most of which is trivial if you're relatively fast with the problem sets). The people here are more serious as well, and most will come from either an extensive research or competition background (neither of which are particularly helpful by the way, you won't be disadvantaged if you don't have either). Frisbee every night is so fun, please go.

Hope that helps a bit, you'll have fun wherever you go!

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mathnerd_101

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mathnerd_101

#18 h Apr 18, 2025, 7:28 PM

Y by

Quote:

Ross is probably the most chill camp in my opinion, since you don't really have to do anything.

I have heard people have literally cried from doing too many problems at Ross... but ok I mean you've gone before so I'll take your word for it lol

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Alpaca31415

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Alpaca31415

#19 h Apr 18, 2025, 8:08 PM

Y by

I got rejected from both HCSSiM and Ross:(

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akliu

1800 posts

akliu

#20 h Apr 18, 2025, 8:10 PM

Y by

Alpaca31415 wrote:

I got rejected from both HCSSiM and Ross:(

:c its okay there's always next year

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rejuvenate

86 posts

rejuvenate

#21 h Apr 18, 2025, 11:27 PM

Y by

akliu wrote:

Alpaca31415 wrote:

I got rejected from both HCSSiM and Ross:(

:c its okay there's always next year

not if you are a senior?? can you think before u comment

This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by rejuvenate, Apr 18, 2025, 11:27 PM

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mathnerd_101

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mathnerd_101

#22 h Apr 19, 2025, 12:33 AM • 2 Y

Y by dppvlit123, elasticwealth

Bro can you calm down before you comment? Do note that akliu has NO idea who this Alpaca31415 kid is, and there's NO mention of it either.

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Alpaca31415

12 posts

Alpaca31415

#23 h Apr 19, 2025, 1:35 AM

Y by

Its okay im in 9th chill out

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HowYou

2 posts

HowYou

#24 h Apr 19, 2025, 1:45 AM • 4 Y

Y by boaway123, Danielzh, akliu, scinderella220

akliu wrote:

I've heard that HCSSiM was more "chill" than Ross was, and that it serves as a really good camp for Junior/Senior year when you're transitioning into the college application grind and you have a lot less time for stuff. How true would you say that is -- do you think any camp of the two is particularly more suited to my grade level (10th), or not really?

Hi, I attended HCSSiM 2024 though I haven't attended Ross before, but I'd still like to provide my personal opinions of the program because I really enjoyed my 6 weeks there.
My answer to the question above is that you'll most certainly never run out of mathematical material to ponder. Workshop sessions/maxi's leave with lots of open-ended questions/rabbit holes to explore so that anyone burning to learn more can discover cool things for themselves outside of class. Moreover, you aren't ever expected to finish every problem on the daily problem sets (because it would be pretty boring if you ran out of math). However, you are allowed and encouraged to keep thinking about the problems you didn't solve and did solve outside of problem sessions. There's also a math library filled with so many books on interesting topics that I spent a lot of time in. Speaking personally, one of my most exciting moments throughout the program was when I stumbled into something super cool in my dorm after quiet hour. Ultimately, the amount that you get out of the program is a function of how much effort you put in, so I wouldn't worry about the program being too mathematically "chill." That being said, you also don't have to worry about the program being not chill enough as long as you're willing to do lots of exciting math (which you presumably are?).
Hopefully this helps!

This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by HowYou, Apr 19, 2025, 1:47 AM
Reason: im bad at writing

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boaway123

18 posts

boaway123

#25 h Apr 19, 2025, 2:17 AM • 1 Y

Y by akliu

clearcrystal1900 wrote:

Just a short response from me since I think boaway123 gives a lot of helpful context already.

I went to both, HCSSiM in 2022 and Ross in 2023. For me personally, I think if you're not sure what you want to do with math yet, go to HCSSiM. You will meet those in a similar situation -- curious and eager to learn, but perhaps unsure if you want to seriously research math or maybe explore some adjacent field. HCSSiM is great in that it's very well- structured for this purpose. They sit you down and walk through so much cool math, making sure you're always engaged. There are also lots of well-organized bonding activities which I wish Ross had more of.

Ross is for the serious and disciplined math student. The entire program is centered around problem sets, which they don't force you to do -- what you put in is exactly what you get out. There's only one hour of lecture everyday (most of which is trivial if you're relatively fast with the problem sets). The people here are more serious as well, and most will come from either an extensive research or competition background (neither of which are particularly helpful by the way, you won't be disadvantaged if you don't have either). Frisbee every night is so fun, please go.

Hope that helps a bit, you'll have fun wherever you go!

Hm, I feel kind of opposite. At least for me, no one in my year at Ross had legitimate math research experience (aside from paid programs, which are no good and just filler) or much experience with higher math (asides from the basics, like discrete math). But in general, it's very hard for high schoolers to do math research, so this is kind of an aside. Most people were also at the AIME level competition wise, and there were a few Olympiad qualifiers (again not that this matters). I also felt the students at Ross were on average not as dedicated and passionate as the ones at HCSSiM (of course, not trying to generalize, as there were many students who worked very hard and were very passionate). A lot of the people seemed to just want to chill and hang out lol, and math was a second. But at HCSSiM, everyone was dedicated during all 8 hours of math daily, and even wanted to discuss math and problems after problem hours, during lunch, and during breaks.

But yea, I very much agree that what you put in is exactly what you get out of Ross.

mathnerd_101 wrote:

Quote:

Ross is probably the most chill camp in my opinion, since you don't really have to do anything.

I have heard people have literally cried from doing too many problems at Ross... but ok I mean you've gone before so I'll take your word for it lol

I've never heard of this frankly, but it seems like something of the past (back when Ross was super strict).

This post has been edited 2 times. Last edited by boaway123, Apr 19, 2025, 2:19 AM

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akliu

1800 posts

akliu

#26 h Apr 19, 2025, 6:44 PM • 6 Y

Y by Danielzh, HowYou, lpieleanu, Alex-131, scinderella220, aidan0626

Thanks so much for the advice everyone!

I was finally able to convince my parents to let me attend HCSSiM if I get accepted, which I'm hoping will happen based on the additional information email.

Super excited for this summer! c:

This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by akliu, Apr 19, 2025, 6:45 PM

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Borisaurus

8 posts

Borisaurus

#27 h Apr 19, 2025, 6:51 PM • 1 Y

Y by akliu

akliu wrote:

Thanks so much for the advice everyone!

I was finally able to convince my parents to let me attend HCSSiM if I get accepted, which I'm hoping will happen based on the additional information email.

Super excited for this summer! c:

Congrats! I sadly got rejected this year but have fun!!!
I wish you the best!

This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by Borisaurus, Apr 19, 2025, 6:51 PM

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scinderella220

1198 posts

scinderella220

#28 h Apr 21, 2025, 3:01 AM • 2 Y

Y by akliu, boaway123

akliu wrote:

Thanks so much for the advice everyone!

I was finally able to convince my parents to let me attend HCSSiM if I get accepted, which I'm hoping will happen based on the additional information email.

Super excited for this summer! c:

yayyy welcome to the yellow pig community! :-D

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