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k a April Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Apr 2, 2025
Spring is in full swing and summer is right around the corner, what are your plans? At AoPS Online our schedule has new classes starting now through July, so be sure to keep your skills sharp and be prepared for the Fall school year! Check out the schedule of upcoming classes below.

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April 9th (Webinar), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Learn about Video-based Summer Camps at the Virtual Campus
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[*]April 22nd (Webinar), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Competitive Programming at AoPS (USACO).[/list]
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0 replies
jlacosta
Apr 2, 2025
0 replies
k i A Letter to MSM
Arr0w   23
N Sep 19, 2022 by scannose
Greetings.

I have seen many posts talking about commonly asked questions, such as finding the value of $0^0$, $\frac{1}{0}$,$\frac{0}{0}$, $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$, why $0.999...=1$ or even expressions of those terms combined as if that would make them defined. I have made this post to answer these questions once and for all, and I politely ask everyone to link this post to threads that are talking about this issue.
[list]
[*]Firstly, the case of $0^0$. It is usually regarded that $0^0=1$, not because this works numerically but because it is convenient to define it this way. You will see the convenience of defining other undefined things later on in this post.

[*]What about $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$? The issue here is that $\infty$ isn't even rigorously defined in this expression. What exactly do we mean by $\infty$? Unless the example in question is put in context in a formal manner, then we say that $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is meaningless.

[*]What about $\frac{1}{0}$? Suppose that $x=\frac{1}{0}$. Then we would have $x\cdot 0=0=1$, absurd. A more rigorous treatment of the idea is that $\lim_{x\to0}\frac{1}{x}$ does not exist in the first place, although you will see why in a calculus course. So the point is that $\frac{1}{0}$ is undefined.

[*]What about if $0.99999...=1$? An article from brilliant has a good explanation. Alternatively, you can just use a geometric series. Notice that
\begin{align*}
\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^n}&=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{1}{10^n}=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\biggr(\frac{1}{10}\biggr)^n=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{1-\frac{1}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{\frac{9}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{1}{9}\biggr)=\boxed{1}
\end{align*}
[*]What about $\frac{0}{0}$? Usually this is considered to be an indeterminate form, but I would also wager that this is also undefined.
[/list]
Hopefully all of these issues and their corollaries are finally put to rest. Cheers.

2nd EDIT (6/14/22): Since I originally posted this, it has since blown up so I will try to add additional information per the request of users in the thread below.

INDETERMINATE VS UNDEFINED

What makes something indeterminate? As you can see above, there are many things that are indeterminate. While definitions might vary slightly, it is the consensus that the following definition holds: A mathematical expression is be said to be indeterminate if it is not definitively or precisely determined. So how does this make, say, something like $0/0$ indeterminate? In analysis (the theory behind calculus and beyond), limits involving an algebraic combination of functions in an independent variable may often be evaluated by replacing these functions by their limits. However, if the expression obtained after this substitution does not provide sufficient information to determine the original limit, then the expression is called an indeterminate form. For example, we could say that $0/0$ is an indeterminate form.

But we need to more specific, this is still ambiguous. An indeterminate form is a mathematical expression involving at most two of $0$, $1$ or $\infty$, obtained by applying the algebraic limit theorem (a theorem in analysis, look this up for details) in the process of attempting to determine a limit, which fails to restrict that limit to one specific value or infinity, and thus does not determine the limit being calculated. This is why it is called indeterminate. Some examples of indeterminate forms are
\[0/0, \infty/\infty, \infty-\infty, \infty \times 0\]etc etc. So what makes something undefined? In the broader scope, something being undefined refers to an expression which is not assigned an interpretation or a value. A function is said to be undefined for points outside its domain. For example, the function $f:\mathbb{R}^{+}\cup\{0\}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}$ given by the mapping $x\mapsto \sqrt{x}$ is undefined for $x<0$. On the other hand, $1/0$ is undefined because dividing by $0$ is not defined in arithmetic by definition. In other words, something is undefined when it is not defined in some mathematical context.

WHEN THE WATERS GET MUDDIED

So with this notion of indeterminate and undefined, things get convoluted. First of all, just because something is indeterminate does not mean it is not undefined. For example $0/0$ is considered both indeterminate and undefined (but in the context of a limit then it is considered in indeterminate form). Additionally, this notion of something being undefined also means that we can define it in some way. To rephrase, this means that technically, we can make something that is undefined to something that is defined as long as we define it. I'll show you what I mean.

One example of making something undefined into something defined is the extended real number line, which we define as
\[\overline{\mathbb{R}}=\mathbb{R}\cup \{-\infty,+\infty\}.\]So instead of treating infinity as an idea, we define infinity (positively and negatively, mind you) as actual numbers in the reals. The advantage of doing this is for two reasons. The first is because we can turn this thing into a totally ordered set. Specifically, we can let $-\infty\le a\le \infty$ for each $a\in\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ which means that via this order topology each subset has an infimum and supremum and $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ is therefore compact. While this is nice from an analytic standpoint, extending the reals in this way can allow for interesting arithmetic! In $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ it is perfectly OK to say that,
\begin{align*}
a + \infty = \infty + a & = \infty, & a & \neq -\infty \\
a - \infty = -\infty + a & = -\infty, & a & \neq \infty \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty] \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \mp\infty, & a & \in [-\infty, 0) \\
\frac{a}{\pm\infty} & = 0, & a & \in \mathbb{R} \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty) \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \mp\infty, & a & \in (-\infty, 0).
\end{align*}So addition, multiplication, and division are all defined nicely. However, notice that we have some indeterminate forms here which are also undefined,
\[\infty-\infty,\frac{\pm\infty}{\pm\infty},\frac{\pm\infty}{0},0\cdot \pm\infty.\]So while we define certain things, we also left others undefined/indeterminate in the process! However, in the context of measure theory it is common to define $\infty \times 0=0$ as greenturtle3141 noted below. I encourage to reread what he wrote, it's great stuff! As you may notice, though, dividing by $0$ is undefined still! Is there a place where it isn't? Kind of. To do this, we can extend the complex numbers! More formally, we can define this extension as
\[\mathbb{C}^*=\mathbb{C}\cup\{\tilde{\infty}\}\]which we call the Riemann Sphere (it actually forms a sphere, pretty cool right?). As a note, $\tilde{\infty}$ means complex infinity, since we are in the complex plane now. Here's the catch: division by $0$ is allowed here! In fact, we have
\[\frac{z}{0}=\tilde{\infty},\frac{z}{\tilde{\infty}}=0.\]where $\tilde{\infty}/\tilde{\infty}$ and $0/0$ are left undefined. We also have
\begin{align*}
z+\tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne -\infty\\
z\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne 0
\end{align*}Furthermore, we actually have some nice properties with multiplication that we didn't have before. In $\mathbb{C}^*$ it holds that
\[\tilde{\infty}\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}\]but $\tilde{\infty}-\tilde{\infty}$ and $0\times \tilde{\infty}$ are left as undefined (unless there is an explicit need to change that somehow). One could define the projectively extended reals as we did with $\mathbb{C}^*$, by defining them as
\[{\widehat {\mathbb {R} }}=\mathbb {R} \cup \{\infty \}.\]They behave in a similar way to the Riemann Sphere, with division by $0$ also being allowed with the same indeterminate forms (in addition to some other ones).
23 replies
Arr0w
Feb 11, 2022
scannose
Sep 19, 2022
k i Marathon Threads
LauraZed   0
Jul 2, 2019
Due to excessive spam and inappropriate posts, we have locked the Prealgebra and Beginning Algebra threads.

We will either unlock these threads once we've cleaned them up or start new ones, but for now, do not start new marathon threads for these subjects. Any new marathon threads started while this announcement is up will be immediately deleted.
0 replies
LauraZed
Jul 2, 2019
0 replies
k i Basic Forum Rules and Info (Read before posting)
jellymoop   368
N May 16, 2018 by harry1234
f (Reminder: Do not post Alcumus or class homework questions on this forum. Instructions below.) f
Welcome to the Middle School Math Forum! Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the rules.

Overview:
[list]
[*] When you're posting a new topic with a math problem, give the topic a detailed title that includes the subject of the problem (not just "easy problem" or "nice problem")
[*] Stay on topic and be courteous.
[*] Hide solutions!
[*] If you see an inappropriate post in this forum, simply report the post and a moderator will deal with it. Don't make your own post telling people they're not following the rules - that usually just makes the issue worse.
[*] When you post a question that you need help solving, post what you've attempted so far and not just the question. We are here to learn from each other, not to do your homework. :P
[*] Avoid making posts just to thank someone - you can use the upvote function instead
[*] Don't make a new reply just to repeat yourself or comment on the quality of others' posts; instead, post when you have a new insight or question. You can also edit your post if it's the most recent and you want to add more information.
[*] Avoid bumping old posts.
[*] Use GameBot to post alcumus questions.
[*] If you need general MATHCOUNTS/math competition advice, check out the threads below.
[*] Don't post other users' real names.
[*] Advertisements are not allowed. You can advertise your forum on your profile with a link, on your blog, and on user-created forums that permit forum advertisements.
[/list]

Here are links to more detailed versions of the rules. These are from the older forums, so you can overlook "Classroom math/Competition math only" instructions.
Posting Guidelines
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What belongs on this forum?
How do I write a thorough solution?
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Mathcounts and how to learn

As always, if you have any questions, you can PM me or any of the other Middle School Moderators. Once again, if you see spam, it would help a lot if you filed a report instead of responding :)

Marathons!
Relays might be a better way to describe it, but these threads definitely go the distance! One person starts off by posting a problem, and the next person comes up with a solution and a new problem for another user to solve. Here's some of the frequently active marathons running in this forum:
[list][*]Algebra
[*]Prealgebra
[*]Proofs
[*]Factoring
[*]Geometry
[*]Counting & Probability
[*]Number Theory[/list]
Some of these haven't received attention in a while, but these are the main ones for their respective subjects. Rather than starting a new marathon, please give the existing ones a shot first.

You can also view marathons via the Marathon tag.

Think this list is incomplete or needs changes? Let the mods know and we'll take a look.
368 replies
jellymoop
May 8, 2015
harry1234
May 16, 2018
Parallelograms and concyclicity
Lukaluce   29
N an hour ago by ItsBesi
Source: EGMO 2025 P4
Let $ABC$ be an acute triangle with incentre $I$ and $AB \neq AC$. Let lines $BI$ and $CI$ intersect the circumcircle of $ABC$ at $P \neq B$ and $Q \neq C$, respectively. Consider points $R$ and $S$ such that $AQRB$ and $ACSP$ are parallelograms (with $AQ \parallel RB, AB \parallel QR, AC \parallel SP$, and $AP \parallel CS$). Let $T$ be the point of intersection of lines $RB$ and $SC$. Prove that points $R, S, T$, and $I$ are concyclic.
29 replies
Lukaluce
Apr 14, 2025
ItsBesi
an hour ago
Inequality with a,b,c,d
GeoMorocco   5
N an hour ago by GeoMorocco
Source: Moroccan Training 2025
Let $ a,b,c,d$ positive real numbers such that $ a+b+c+d=3+\frac{1}{abcd}$ . Prove that :
$$ a^2+b^2+c^2+d^2+5abcd \geq 9 $$
5 replies
+1 w
GeoMorocco
Apr 9, 2025
GeoMorocco
an hour ago
number theory
Levieee   4
N an hour ago by Safal
Idk where it went wrong, marks was deducted for this solution
$\textbf{Question}$
Show that for a fixed pair of distinct positive integers \( a \) and \( b \), there cannot exist infinitely many \( n \in \mathbb{Z} \) such that
\[
\sqrt{n + a} + \sqrt{n + b} \in \mathbb{Z}.
\]
$\textbf{Solution}$

Let
\[
x = \sqrt{n + a} + \sqrt{n + b} \in \mathbb{N}.
\]
Then,
\[
x^2 = (\sqrt{n + a} + \sqrt{n + b})^2 = (n + a) + (n + b) + 2\sqrt{(n + a)(n + b)}.
\]So:
\[
x^2 = 2n + a + b + 2\sqrt{(n + a)(n + b)}.
\]
Therefore,
\[
\sqrt{(n + a)(n + b)} \in \mathbb{N}.
\]
Let
\[
(n + a)(n + b) = k^2.
\]Assume \( n + a \neq n + b \). Then we have:
\[
n + a \mid k \quad \text{and} \quad k \mid n + b,
\]or it could also be that \( k \mid n + a \quad \text{and} \quad n + b \mid k \).

Without loss of generality, we take the first case:
\[
(n + a)k_1 = k \quad \text{and} \quad kk_2 = n + b.
\]
Thus,
\[
k_1 k_2 = \frac{n + b}{n + a}.
\]
Since \( k_1 k_2 \in \mathbb{N} \), we have:
\[
k_1 k_2 = 1 + \frac{b - a}{n + a}.
\]
For infinitely many \( n \), \( \frac{b - a}{n + a} \) must be an integer, which is not possible.

Therefore, there cannot be infinitely many such \( n \).
4 replies
Levieee
2 hours ago
Safal
an hour ago
Sequence and prime factors
USJL   7
N an hour ago by MathLuis
Source: 2025 Taiwan TST Round 2 Independent Study 1-N
Let $a_0,a_1,\ldots$ be a sequence of positive integers with $a_0=1$, $a_1=2$ and
\[a_n = a_{n-1}^{a_{n-1}a_{n-2}}-1\]for all $n\geq 2$. Show that if $p$ is a prime less than $2^k$ for some positive integer $k$, then there exists $n\leq k+1$ such that $p\mid a_n$.
7 replies
USJL
Mar 26, 2025
MathLuis
an hour ago
Bogus Proof Marathon
pifinity   7580
N 3 hours ago by MathWinner121
Hi!
I'd like to introduce the Bogus Proof Marathon.

In this marathon, simply post a bogus proof that is middle-school level and the next person will find the error. You don't have to post the real solution :P

Use classic Marathon format:
[hide=P#]a1b2c3[/hide]
[hide=S#]a1b2c3[/hide]


Example posts:

P(x)
-----
S(x)
P(x+1)
-----
Let's go!! Just don't make it too hard!
7580 replies
pifinity
Mar 12, 2018
MathWinner121
3 hours ago
Weird Similarity
mithu542   0
4 hours ago
Is it just me or are the 2023 national sprint #21 and 2025 state target #4 strangely similar?
[quote=2023 Natioinal Sprint #21] A right triangle with integer side lengths has perimeter $N$ feet and area $N$ ft^2. What is the arithmetic mean of all possible values of $N$?[/quote]
[quote=2025 State Target #4]Suppose a right triangle has an area of 20 cm^2 and a perimeter of 40 cm. What is
the length of the hypotenuse, in centimeters?[/quote]
0 replies
mithu542
4 hours ago
0 replies
An algebra math problem
AVY2024   6
N 4 hours ago by Roger.Moore
Solve for a,b
ax-2b=5bx-3a
6 replies
AVY2024
Apr 8, 2025
Roger.Moore
4 hours ago
easy olympiad problem
kjhgyuio   5
N 4 hours ago by Roger.Moore
Find all positive integer values of \( x \) such that
\[
\sqrt{x - 2011} + \sqrt{2011 - x} + 10
\]is an integer.
5 replies
kjhgyuio
Yesterday at 2:00 PM
Roger.Moore
4 hours ago
Mathcounts Nationals Roommate Search
iwillregretthisnamelater   37
N 4 hours ago by MathWinner121
Does anybody want to be my roommate at nats? Every other qualifier in my state is female. :sob:
Respond quick pls i gotta submit it in like a couple of hours.
37 replies
iwillregretthisnamelater
Mar 31, 2025
MathWinner121
4 hours ago
EaZ_Shadow
Apr 6, 2025
derekwang2048
5 hours ago
Math and AI 4 Girls
mkwhe   20
N Today at 3:58 PM by fishchips
Hey everyone!

The 2025 MA4G competition is now open!

Apply Here: https://xmathandai4girls.submittable.com/submit


Visit https://www.mathandai4girls.org/ to get started!

Feel free to PM or email mathandai4girls@yahoo.com if you have any questions!
20 replies
mkwhe
Apr 5, 2025
fishchips
Today at 3:58 PM
k real math problems
Soupboy0   60
N Today at 2:12 PM by Soupboy0
Ill be posting questions once in a while. Here's the first question:

What fraction of numbers from $1$ to $1000$ have the digit $7$ and are divisible by $3$?
60 replies
Soupboy0
Mar 25, 2025
Soupboy0
Today at 2:12 PM
Website to learn math
hawa   29
N Today at 5:50 AM by Andrew2019
Hi, I'm kinda curious what website do yall use to learn math, like i dont find any website thats fun to learn math
29 replies
hawa
Apr 9, 2025
Andrew2019
Today at 5:50 AM
simplify inequality
ngelyy   9
N Today at 3:35 AM by ngelyy
$\frac{24x}{21}+\frac{35x}{49}-\frac{x}{2}$
9 replies
ngelyy
Today at 2:59 AM
ngelyy
Today at 3:35 AM
Rotating segment by 45 degrees and interchanging endpoints.
Goutham   10
N Apr 14, 2025 by Ilikeminecraft
A needle (a segment) lies on a plane. One can rotate it $45^{\circ}$ round any of its endpoints. Is it possible that after several rotations the needle returns to initial position with the endpoints interchanged?
10 replies
Goutham
Feb 9, 2011
Ilikeminecraft
Apr 14, 2025
Rotating segment by 45 degrees and interchanging endpoints.
G H J
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Goutham
3130 posts
#1 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
A needle (a segment) lies on a plane. One can rotate it $45^{\circ}$ round any of its endpoints. Is it possible that after several rotations the needle returns to initial position with the endpoints interchanged?
Z K Y
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Akashnil
736 posts
#2 • 7 Y
Y by Aryan-23, Adventure10, Mango247, ohiorizzler1434, and 3 other users
Let the needle's endpoints initially lie at two adjacent lattice points in the cartesian coordinate plane.
It is clear that after some rotations, an endpoint's coordinates will be of the form:
$(a+b\cdot 2^{-\frac{1}{2}}, c+d\cdot 2^{-\frac{1}{2}})$, where $a,b,c,d\in \mathbb Z$
Since, $1, 2^{-\frac{1}{2}}$ are linearly independent over $\mathbb Z$, this is a unique representation.
the parity of $a+b$ is invariant for both endpoints. They start at different parity. So they can't interchange positions.
Z K Y
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v_Enhance
6872 posts
#3 • 5 Y
Y by HamstPan38825, Aryan-23, JAnatolGT_00, khina, john0512
Solution from Twitch Solves ISL: The answer is no.

Work in ${\mathbb Z}[\omega]$ where $\omega = \cos(45^{\circ})+i\sin(45^{\circ})$. Draw the needle as a directed segment from $0$ to $1$ in the plane.
We will only keep track of the left end point: if the endpoint is located at $z$. Rotations around the other endpoint correspond to \[ z \mapsto z + \omega^k - \omega^{k-1} \]for some choice of $\omega$.
The claim is that we never can reach $1$. To prove this we only need show the following claim, which proves the relevant invariant.

Claim: $0 \not\equiv 1 \pmod{\omega-1}$ in ${\mathbb Z}[\omega]$.
Proof. It suffices to show ${\mathbb Z}[\omega]/(\omega-1)$ is not trivial. Write ${\mathbb Z}[\omega] = {\mathbb Z}[T] / (T^4+1)$, then \[ {\mathbb Z}[\omega]/(\omega-1) 		\cong {\mathbb Z}[T] / \left( T^4+1, T-1 \right) 		\cong {\mathbb Z} / 2 = {\mathbb F}_2 \]as desired. $\blacksquare$
Z K Y
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IAmTheHazard
5001 posts
#5
Y by
Essentially the same as #2, but this is how I thought about it

Position the needle such that one endpoint is at $(0,0)$ and the other is at $(1,0)$, and WLOG rotate about the left endpoint first. Suppose a sequence of rotations works. Right before we switch endpoints to rotate around, draw the needle's current position on the plane. Also draw the line joining $(0,0)$ and $(1,0)$. Then the drawn segments clearly form a cycle/polygon. Furthermore, because the endpoints must be interchanged, there must be an odd number of vertices on this graph. On the other hand, every drawn segment has length $1$ and is either horizontal, vertical or has slope $\pm 1$. Because $1$ and $\sqrt{2}$ are linearly independent over $\mathbb{Z}$, it then follows that to end at the same position we started, we need an even number of horizontal and an even number of vertical edges. By rotating the argument $45^\circ$ the same is true for edges with slope $1$ and edges with slope $-1$, so there are an even number of edges and thus vertices: contradiction. $\blacksquare$
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popop614
271 posts
#6
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The answer should be no. Let $\omega = e^{\frac{\pi i}{4}}$.

We start at $0$. A move consists of taking a complex number $z$ and adding $\omega^k$ where $k$ is some integer from $0$ to $7$. (Effectively what this does is that we rotate the needle by some amount, and then jump to the other endpoint.) We now show that the number of moves must be even, if we return to $0$. More formally, if

\[ \sum_{k = 0}^{7} a_k\omega^k = 0 \]for some integers $a_0$ through $a_7$, we must have that
\[ \sum_{k = 0}^{7} a_k \equiv 0 \pmod{2}.\]
In fact we can assume that $a_4$ through $a_7$ are zero, by subtracting pairs of $0 = \omega^k + \omega^{k + 4}$ while preserving the parity.

Now consider the real part of this thing. We have $a_0 + \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}a_1 - \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}a_3 = 0$. As such $a_0 = 0$. Likewise, $a_2 = 0$. This then forces $a_1 = a_3 = 0$, so the statement is true.
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HamstPan38825
8857 posts
#7
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Does this work?

The answer is no. Let $\omega$ be a primitive eighth root of unity. Suppose otherwise, and consider the locus of all positions of the segment. Modulo the first and last positions, all such segments $\ell$ form an equilateral polygon with an odd number of sides.

As a result, there must exist some odd number of $\omega^k$'s that sum to $0$; equivalently, there exists a polynomial $f \in \mathbb Z[X]$ such that $f(1)$ is odd and $f(\omega) = 0$.

But then $X^4+1 \mid f$, and hence $2 \mid f(1)$, contradiction!
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blackbluecar
302 posts
#8
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I have a very silly solution, which by the looks of things looks kinda different from the other solutions.

We place the needle on the complex plane with one end at $0$ and the other at $1$. We will let $z_0=0$ and $z_1=1$ and after $n$ moves, we let $z_n$ denote the new endpoint of the needle after a move. Note that if $\omega = e^{\frac{\pi i}{4}}$ then we can set up the following recurrence relation for $z_1,z_2, \ldots$ \[ z_{n} = \omega^{e_{n}}(z_{n-2}-z_{n-1})-z_{n-2} = (1- \omega^{e_{n}})z_{n-1}+\omega^{e_{n}}z_{n-2}\]for an arbitrary sequence of integers $e_1,e_2, \ldots$. This recurrence works because we translate $z_n$ to a new point $w$ on the unit circle, rotate it by $e_{n} \cdot \frac{\pi}{4}$ and undo the translation, which is exactly the operation we desire.

Claim: If $k$ is odd and $a_1,a_2, \ldots, a_k$ are integers, then \[ \omega^{a_1}+\omega^{a_2}+ \cdots + \omega^{a_k} \not = 0 \]
This is equivalent to showing that if $t_1\omega^1+t_2\omega^2+ \cdots +t_8\omega^8 = 0$ then $t_1+t_2+ \cdots +t_8$ is even. Indeed, note that \[ \Re(t_1\omega^1+t_2\omega^2 \cdots +t_8\omega^8) = t_1\cdot \Re(\omega^1)+t_2 \cdot \Re(\omega^2) \cdots +t_8 \cdot \Re(\omega^8)=0 \]\[ \implies (t_1+t_3-t_5-t_7) \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} + t_2+t_4 = 0 \implies t_1+t_3-t_5-t_7=0 \]So, $t_1+t_3+t_5+t_7$ is even. We also note that \[\omega \cdot (t_1\omega^1+t_2\omega^2 \cdots +t_8\omega^8) = 0 \implies t_8\omega^1+t_1\omega^2 \cdots +t_7\omega^8\]So, $t_2+t_4+t_6+t_8$ is even by the same logic. Thus, $t_1+t_3+ \cdots +t_8$ is even as desired. $\square$

Thus, if we let $A_n$ denote the number of terms in the expansion of $z_n$, we can set up the following recursion \[ z_{n} = (1- \omega^{e_{n}})z_{n-1}+\omega^{e_{n}}z_{n-2} = z_{n-1} + \omega^{e_n+4} \cdot z_{n-1} + \omega^{e_n}z_{n-2}\]\[ \implies A_n = 2A_{n-1} + A_{n-2} \]Where $A_0=0$ and $A_1=1$. Note that this recursion implies that for all odd $k$, we have $A_k \equiv A_{k-2} \equiv \cdots \equiv A_1 \equiv 1 \pmod{2}$. Thus, $z_k$ has an odd number of terms in it's $\omega$ expansion. Thus, $z_k \not = 0 = z_0$ for all odd $k$. So, the two ends of the needle cannot swap.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by blackbluecar, Dec 29, 2023, 6:14 AM
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dolphinday
1319 posts
#10
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Work in $\mathbb{Z}\left[\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}\right]^2$. WLOG the needle has length $1$. We will only focus on one endpoint, and prove that it cannot lie on the starting point of the other endpoint.
Then note that rotating point $\left(a_1 + b_1\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}, a_2 + b_2\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}\right)$ around another results in both $a_1 + b_1$ and $a_2 + b_2$ being invariant modulo $2$. However, since the two endpoints of the needle have distance $1$, the two endpoints have different parities, so they cannot swap.
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john0512
4178 posts
#11
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The answer is no.

Main Claim: If $v_1,v_2,\dots v_n$ are vectors with the same magnitude that sum to $0$ and the argument of each vector is a multiple of $45$ degrees, then $n$ is even.

Suppose the magnitude is $2$. The idea here is that since $\sqrt{2}$ is irrational, both the integer and $\sqrt{2}$ parts of both $x$ and $y$ coordinates must be zero. Thus $(2,0)$ appears the same number of times as $(-2,0)$, and $(0,2)$ appears the same number of times as $(0,-2)$. Furthermore, $(\sqrt{2},\sqrt{2}),(\sqrt{2},-\sqrt{2})$ in total occur the same number of times as $(-\sqrt{2},\sqrt{2}),(-\sqrt{2},-\sqrt{2})$ in total due to the $x$ coordinate. Thus, the total number of vectors is even.

Contract any series of pivots around the same endpoint into a single rotation. Thus, what happens is that the needle repeatedly pivots some multiple of 45 degrees around one endpoint, and then switches the pivot to the other endpoint. The difference between consecutive endpoints is always the same magnitude and has an argument a multiple of $45$ degrees. However, in order for it to get back to its original position with the orientation swapped, the number of such vectors must be odd, contradiction.
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Mathandski
738 posts
#12
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Assign each endpoint $\left(a+b \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}, c+d \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} \right)$. Induct gives $a+c+d$ parity unchanged.
This post has been edited 5 times. Last edited by Mathandski, Mar 6, 2025, 6:23 PM
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Ilikeminecraft
344 posts
#13
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No. Let $\omega = e^{\frac{\pi i}{4}}.$ Assume this exists. If we trace out the path as we move along the sequence, it forms a polygon(not necessarily degenerate) with odd number of vertices.
[asy]
        size(4cm);
        pair Exp(real r){
            return (cos(r), sin(r));
        }
        draw((1, 0) -- (0, 0) -- Exp(pi/4) -- 2 * Exp(pi/4) -- (2 * Exp(pi/4) + Exp(0)) -- (2 * Exp(pi/4) + 2 * Exp(0)));
        draw(2 * Exp(pi/4) + (2,0) -- (1, 0), Dotted);
        dot((0, 0), black);
        dot((1,0), red);
        dot(Exp(pi/4), red);
        dot(2 * Exp(pi/4), black);
        dot(2 * Exp(pi/4) + (1,0), red);
        dot(2 * Exp(pi/4) + (2,0), black);
[/asy]
Thus, it suffices to show that there doesn't exist nonnegative integers $a_k < 8$ such that \[\sum_{k = 0}^{2\ell} \omega^{a_k} = 0.\]Substitute $x = \omega,$ and we get that the polynomial \[P(x) = \sum_{k = 0}^{2\ell} x^{a_k}\]must have a root at $x=\omega$. Furthermore, $P(x)\in\mathbb Z[x].$ Since $P(\omega) = 0,$ it follows the minimal polynomial of $\omega$(equivalently $\Phi_4(x) = x^4 + 1$) must divide $P.$ Thus, $x^4 + 1 \mid P.$ However, this implies $2\mid P(1).$ However, this is false since $P$ is the sum of an odd number of $x^k.$
This post has been edited 3 times. Last edited by Ilikeminecraft, Apr 14, 2025, 8:40 PM
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