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k a June Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Jun 2, 2025
Congratulations to all the mathletes who competed at National MATHCOUNTS! If you missed the exciting Countdown Round, you can watch the video at this link. Are you interested in training for MATHCOUNTS or AMC 10 contests? How would you like to train for these math competitions in half the time? We have accelerated sections which meet twice per week instead of once starting on July 8th (7:30pm ET). These sections fill quickly so enroll today!

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0 replies
jlacosta
Jun 2, 2025
0 replies
k i A Letter to MSM
Arr0w   23
N Sep 19, 2022 by scannose
Greetings.

I have seen many posts talking about commonly asked questions, such as finding the value of $0^0$, $\frac{1}{0}$,$\frac{0}{0}$, $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$, why $0.999...=1$ or even expressions of those terms combined as if that would make them defined. I have made this post to answer these questions once and for all, and I politely ask everyone to link this post to threads that are talking about this issue.
[list]
[*]Firstly, the case of $0^0$. It is usually regarded that $0^0=1$, not because this works numerically but because it is convenient to define it this way. You will see the convenience of defining other undefined things later on in this post.

[*]What about $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$? The issue here is that $\infty$ isn't even rigorously defined in this expression. What exactly do we mean by $\infty$? Unless the example in question is put in context in a formal manner, then we say that $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is meaningless.

[*]What about $\frac{1}{0}$? Suppose that $x=\frac{1}{0}$. Then we would have $x\cdot 0=0=1$, absurd. A more rigorous treatment of the idea is that $\lim_{x\to0}\frac{1}{x}$ does not exist in the first place, although you will see why in a calculus course. So the point is that $\frac{1}{0}$ is undefined.

[*]What about if $0.99999...=1$? An article from brilliant has a good explanation. Alternatively, you can just use a geometric series. Notice that
\begin{align*}
\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^n}&=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{1}{10^n}=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\biggr(\frac{1}{10}\biggr)^n=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{1-\frac{1}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{\frac{9}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{1}{9}\biggr)=\boxed{1}
\end{align*}
[*]What about $\frac{0}{0}$? Usually this is considered to be an indeterminate form, but I would also wager that this is also undefined.
[/list]
Hopefully all of these issues and their corollaries are finally put to rest. Cheers.

2nd EDIT (6/14/22): Since I originally posted this, it has since blown up so I will try to add additional information per the request of users in the thread below.

INDETERMINATE VS UNDEFINED

What makes something indeterminate? As you can see above, there are many things that are indeterminate. While definitions might vary slightly, it is the consensus that the following definition holds: A mathematical expression is be said to be indeterminate if it is not definitively or precisely determined. So how does this make, say, something like $0/0$ indeterminate? In analysis (the theory behind calculus and beyond), limits involving an algebraic combination of functions in an independent variable may often be evaluated by replacing these functions by their limits. However, if the expression obtained after this substitution does not provide sufficient information to determine the original limit, then the expression is called an indeterminate form. For example, we could say that $0/0$ is an indeterminate form.

But we need to more specific, this is still ambiguous. An indeterminate form is a mathematical expression involving at most two of $0$, $1$ or $\infty$, obtained by applying the algebraic limit theorem (a theorem in analysis, look this up for details) in the process of attempting to determine a limit, which fails to restrict that limit to one specific value or infinity, and thus does not determine the limit being calculated. This is why it is called indeterminate. Some examples of indeterminate forms are
\[0/0, \infty/\infty, \infty-\infty, \infty \times 0\]etc etc. So what makes something undefined? In the broader scope, something being undefined refers to an expression which is not assigned an interpretation or a value. A function is said to be undefined for points outside its domain. For example, the function $f:\mathbb{R}^{+}\cup\{0\}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}$ given by the mapping $x\mapsto \sqrt{x}$ is undefined for $x<0$. On the other hand, $1/0$ is undefined because dividing by $0$ is not defined in arithmetic by definition. In other words, something is undefined when it is not defined in some mathematical context.

WHEN THE WATERS GET MUDDIED

So with this notion of indeterminate and undefined, things get convoluted. First of all, just because something is indeterminate does not mean it is not undefined. For example $0/0$ is considered both indeterminate and undefined (but in the context of a limit then it is considered in indeterminate form). Additionally, this notion of something being undefined also means that we can define it in some way. To rephrase, this means that technically, we can make something that is undefined to something that is defined as long as we define it. I'll show you what I mean.

One example of making something undefined into something defined is the extended real number line, which we define as
\[\overline{\mathbb{R}}=\mathbb{R}\cup \{-\infty,+\infty\}.\]So instead of treating infinity as an idea, we define infinity (positively and negatively, mind you) as actual numbers in the reals. The advantage of doing this is for two reasons. The first is because we can turn this thing into a totally ordered set. Specifically, we can let $-\infty\le a\le \infty$ for each $a\in\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ which means that via this order topology each subset has an infimum and supremum and $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ is therefore compact. While this is nice from an analytic standpoint, extending the reals in this way can allow for interesting arithmetic! In $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ it is perfectly OK to say that,
\begin{align*}
a + \infty = \infty + a & = \infty, & a & \neq -\infty \\
a - \infty = -\infty + a & = -\infty, & a & \neq \infty \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty] \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \mp\infty, & a & \in [-\infty, 0) \\
\frac{a}{\pm\infty} & = 0, & a & \in \mathbb{R} \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty) \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \mp\infty, & a & \in (-\infty, 0).
\end{align*}So addition, multiplication, and division are all defined nicely. However, notice that we have some indeterminate forms here which are also undefined,
\[\infty-\infty,\frac{\pm\infty}{\pm\infty},\frac{\pm\infty}{0},0\cdot \pm\infty.\]So while we define certain things, we also left others undefined/indeterminate in the process! However, in the context of measure theory it is common to define $\infty \times 0=0$ as greenturtle3141 noted below. I encourage to reread what he wrote, it's great stuff! As you may notice, though, dividing by $0$ is undefined still! Is there a place where it isn't? Kind of. To do this, we can extend the complex numbers! More formally, we can define this extension as
\[\mathbb{C}^*=\mathbb{C}\cup\{\tilde{\infty}\}\]which we call the Riemann Sphere (it actually forms a sphere, pretty cool right?). As a note, $\tilde{\infty}$ means complex infinity, since we are in the complex plane now. Here's the catch: division by $0$ is allowed here! In fact, we have
\[\frac{z}{0}=\tilde{\infty},\frac{z}{\tilde{\infty}}=0.\]where $\tilde{\infty}/\tilde{\infty}$ and $0/0$ are left undefined. We also have
\begin{align*}
z+\tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne -\infty\\
z\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne 0
\end{align*}Furthermore, we actually have some nice properties with multiplication that we didn't have before. In $\mathbb{C}^*$ it holds that
\[\tilde{\infty}\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}\]but $\tilde{\infty}-\tilde{\infty}$ and $0\times \tilde{\infty}$ are left as undefined (unless there is an explicit need to change that somehow). One could define the projectively extended reals as we did with $\mathbb{C}^*$, by defining them as
\[{\widehat {\mathbb {R} }}=\mathbb {R} \cup \{\infty \}.\]They behave in a similar way to the Riemann Sphere, with division by $0$ also being allowed with the same indeterminate forms (in addition to some other ones).
23 replies
Arr0w
Feb 11, 2022
scannose
Sep 19, 2022
k i Marathon Threads
LauraZed   0
Jul 2, 2019
Due to excessive spam and inappropriate posts, we have locked the Prealgebra and Beginning Algebra threads.

We will either unlock these threads once we've cleaned them up or start new ones, but for now, do not start new marathon threads for these subjects. Any new marathon threads started while this announcement is up will be immediately deleted.
0 replies
LauraZed
Jul 2, 2019
0 replies
k i Basic Forum Rules and Info (Read before posting)
jellymoop   368
N May 16, 2018 by harry1234
f (Reminder: Do not post Alcumus or class homework questions on this forum. Instructions below.) f
Welcome to the Middle School Math Forum! Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the rules.

Overview:
[list]
[*] When you're posting a new topic with a math problem, give the topic a detailed title that includes the subject of the problem (not just "easy problem" or "nice problem")
[*] Stay on topic and be courteous.
[*] Hide solutions!
[*] If you see an inappropriate post in this forum, simply report the post and a moderator will deal with it. Don't make your own post telling people they're not following the rules - that usually just makes the issue worse.
[*] When you post a question that you need help solving, post what you've attempted so far and not just the question. We are here to learn from each other, not to do your homework. :P
[*] Avoid making posts just to thank someone - you can use the upvote function instead
[*] Don't make a new reply just to repeat yourself or comment on the quality of others' posts; instead, post when you have a new insight or question. You can also edit your post if it's the most recent and you want to add more information.
[*] Avoid bumping old posts.
[*] Use GameBot to post alcumus questions.
[*] If you need general MATHCOUNTS/math competition advice, check out the threads below.
[*] Don't post other users' real names.
[*] Advertisements are not allowed. You can advertise your forum on your profile with a link, on your blog, and on user-created forums that permit forum advertisements.
[/list]

Here are links to more detailed versions of the rules. These are from the older forums, so you can overlook "Classroom math/Competition math only" instructions.
Posting Guidelines
Update on Basic Forum Rules
What belongs on this forum?
How do I write a thorough solution?
How do I get a problem on the contest page?
How do I study for mathcounts?
Mathcounts FAQ and resources
Mathcounts and how to learn

As always, if you have any questions, you can PM me or any of the other Middle School Moderators. Once again, if you see spam, it would help a lot if you filed a report instead of responding :)

Marathons!
Relays might be a better way to describe it, but these threads definitely go the distance! One person starts off by posting a problem, and the next person comes up with a solution and a new problem for another user to solve. Here's some of the frequently active marathons running in this forum:
[list][*]Algebra
[*]Prealgebra
[*]Proofs
[*]Factoring
[*]Geometry
[*]Counting & Probability
[*]Number Theory[/list]
Some of these haven't received attention in a while, but these are the main ones for their respective subjects. Rather than starting a new marathon, please give the existing ones a shot first.

You can also view marathons via the Marathon tag.

Think this list is incomplete or needs changes? Let the mods know and we'll take a look.
368 replies
jellymoop
May 8, 2015
harry1234
May 16, 2018
Euclidean theorem
Bet667   2
N 10 minutes ago by Primeniyazidayi
if $x>2$ then prove that $$\pi(x)\ge ln ln x$$
2 replies
Bet667
5 hours ago
Primeniyazidayi
10 minutes ago
Non-classical FE
M11100111001Y1R   1
N 28 minutes ago by CatinoBarbaraCombinatoric
Source: Iran TST 2025 Test 2 Problem 3
Find all functions $f:  \mathbb{R}^+ \to \mathbb{R}^+$ such that for all $x, y >0$ we have:
$$f(f(f(xy))+x^2)=f(y)(f(x)-f(x+y))$$
1 reply
M11100111001Y1R
2 hours ago
CatinoBarbaraCombinatoric
28 minutes ago
My Unsolved Problem
ZeltaQN2008   5
N an hour ago by Funcshun840
Source: IDK
Let \( ABC \) be an acute triangle inscribed in its circumcircle \( (O) \), and let \( (I) \) be its incircle. Let \( K \) be the point where the $A-mixtilinear$ incircle of triangle $ABC$ touches \((O)\). Suppose line \( OI \) intersects segment \( AK \) at \( P \), and intersects line \( BC \) at \( Q \). Let the line through \( I \) perpendicular to \( BC \) intersect line \( KQ \) at \( A' \). Prove that: \[AI \parallel PA'.\]
5 replies
ZeltaQN2008
Yesterday at 1:23 PM
Funcshun840
an hour ago
Angle QRP = 90°
orl   13
N an hour ago by Ilikeminecraft
Source: IMO ShortList, Netherlands 1, IMO 1975, Day 1, Problem 3
In the plane of a triangle $ABC,$ in its exterior$,$ we draw the triangles $ABR, BCP, CAQ$ so that $\angle PBC = \angle CAQ = 45^{\circ}$, $\angle BCP = \angle QCA = 30^{\circ}$, $\angle ABR = \angle RAB = 15^{\circ}$.

Prove that

a.) $\angle QRP = 90\,^{\circ},$ and

b.) $QR = RP.$
13 replies
orl
Nov 12, 2005
Ilikeminecraft
an hour ago
Lower and Upper Bounds of x
Darealzolt   3
N 5 hours ago by HAL9000sk
Let \(x\) fulfill
\[
x=\frac{1}{\frac{1}{770}+\frac{1}{771}+\frac{1}{772}+\dots+\frac{1}{799}+\frac{1}{800}}
\]Hence find the sum of the greatest integer value that is less than \(x\) and the smallest integer value that is greater than \(x\).
3 replies
Darealzolt
Yesterday at 2:42 PM
HAL9000sk
5 hours ago
Math Relay
evt917   8
N 5 hours ago by elizhang101412
if it's a marathon thread i don't want to know lol

Alright, this is the math relay!

I will start with a simple math question. Let the answer to that problem be $N$. Then, you make a problem using $N$.

Try to solve the above problem without looking at the hide tag.

example

First problem: Find the area of a square with diagonal $10\sqrt{2}$
8 replies
evt917
Jun 3, 2025
elizhang101412
5 hours ago
polynomial division vs simplify
Miranda2829   9
N 6 hours ago by aops-g5-gethsemanea2
the question is

4x² - 4x +1 divide by 2x + 1 write in fraction format

the answer is 2x-3 + 4/2x+1

so my question is can we simiplfy this -4x with 2x become -2x

then answer 4x² -2x+1?

Im confused , when do usual fraction division we can simplify, but in above question doesn't seem to work.

many thanks
9 replies
Miranda2829
May 25, 2025
aops-g5-gethsemanea2
6 hours ago
I found this
TennisChampion   13
N Today at 6:19 AM by AR17296174
A ball and a bat cost $1.10

the bat costs one more dollar than the ball

how much does the ball cost?

I'll post the answer when someone gets it
13 replies
TennisChampion
Jan 16, 2024
AR17296174
Today at 6:19 AM
Worst math problems
LXC007   63
N Today at 5:19 AM by Andrew2019
What is the most egregiously bad problem or solution you have encountered in school?
63 replies
LXC007
May 21, 2025
Andrew2019
Today at 5:19 AM
Personal Modulo Problem (Title: Encrypted Code)
PikaVee   2
N Today at 5:01 AM by Yihangzh
3 Pokemon each have they own number to use on a part of a lock. Star the Pikachu has the number 87, Luna the Eevee has the number 92, and Aero the Mew has the number 79. A part of their code is found in the expression $C \equiv (3S+5L-2A) \bmod 101$.

To double check if it is right then it needs to follow $C \equiv 5 \bmod 8$ and $C \equiv 3 \bmod 11$. If it does follow it then you need to find the sum of the coefficients with the code the code itself, but if not replace the sum of the coefficients with the lowest possible sum of coefficients where $X+Y+Z+C$ in $(XZ+YL-ZA) \bmod 101$ where X, Y, and Z are positive integers more than 0.

Solution
2 replies
PikaVee
Yesterday at 4:05 PM
Yihangzh
Today at 5:01 AM
An annoying math problem
Wolfpierce   9
N Today at 4:56 AM by Yihangzh
Okay so what is 2/((√3+1)((3 to the 1/4)+1)((3 to the 1/8)+1)((3 to the 1/16)+1)) to the power of 32?
9 replies
Wolfpierce
Today at 12:17 AM
Yihangzh
Today at 4:56 AM
3D Geometry problem
ReticulatedPython   2
N Today at 4:53 AM by Yihangzh
Three cones of base radius $1$ and slant height $2$ rest on the same plane.and have their bases tangent to each other. A sphere is tangent to the plane and to the three cones. Find the radius of this sphere, and give your answer in simplest radical form.

Source: Own
2 replies
ReticulatedPython
Jun 3, 2025
Yihangzh
Today at 4:53 AM
9 Prodigy AoPS or Khanacadamy
ZMB038   109
N Today at 4:34 AM by skyleaf
Hey everyone just was wondering what everybody prefers? Try not to fight so this doesn't get locked!
109 replies
ZMB038
May 22, 2025
skyleaf
Today at 4:34 AM
450th post!
JohannIsBach   10
N Today at 4:05 AM by ShrewdBunny
this is my 450th post! the last time i posted one of these was when i had 100! wow iv gon so far... what should my next goal be?
10 replies
JohannIsBach
Jun 3, 2025
ShrewdBunny
Today at 4:05 AM
$2$ spheres of radius $1$ and $2$
khanh20   1
N Apr 13, 2025 by khanh20
Given $2$ spheres centered at $O$, with radius of $1$ and $2$, which is remarked as $S_1$ and $S_2$, respectively. Given $2024$ points $M_1,M_2,...,M_{2024}$ outside of $S_2$ (not including the surface of $S_2$).
Remark $T$ as the number of sets $\{M_i,M_j\}$ such that the midpoint of $M_iM_j$ lies entirely inside of $S_1$.
Find the maximum value of $T$
1 reply
khanh20
Apr 13, 2025
khanh20
Apr 13, 2025
$2$ spheres of radius $1$ and $2$
G H J
The post below has been deleted. Click to close.
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khanh20
52 posts
#1
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Given $2$ spheres centered at $O$, with radius of $1$ and $2$, which is remarked as $S_1$ and $S_2$, respectively. Given $2024$ points $M_1,M_2,...,M_{2024}$ outside of $S_2$ (not including the surface of $S_2$).
Remark $T$ as the number of sets $\{M_i,M_j\}$ such that the midpoint of $M_iM_j$ lies entirely inside of $S_1$.
Find the maximum value of $T$
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khanh20
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#2
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Bump bump bump
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