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k a April Highlights and 2025 AoPS Online Class Information
jlacosta   0
Apr 2, 2025
Spring is in full swing and summer is right around the corner, what are your plans? At AoPS Online our schedule has new classes starting now through July, so be sure to keep your skills sharp and be prepared for the Fall school year! Check out the schedule of upcoming classes below.

WOOT early bird pricing is in effect, don’t miss out! If you took MathWOOT Level 2 last year, no worries, it is all new problems this year! Our Worldwide Online Olympiad Training program is for high school level competitors. AoPS designed these courses to help our top students get the deep focus they need to succeed in their specific competition goals. Check out the details at this link for all our WOOT programs in math, computer science, chemistry, and physics.

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April 9th (Webinar), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Learn about Video-based Summer Camps at the Virtual Campus
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[*]April 22nd (Webinar), 4:00pm PT/7:00pm ET, Competitive Programming at AoPS (USACO).[/list]
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0 replies
jlacosta
Apr 2, 2025
0 replies
k i A Letter to MSM
Arr0w   23
N Sep 19, 2022 by scannose
Greetings.

I have seen many posts talking about commonly asked questions, such as finding the value of $0^0$, $\frac{1}{0}$,$\frac{0}{0}$, $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$, why $0.999...=1$ or even expressions of those terms combined as if that would make them defined. I have made this post to answer these questions once and for all, and I politely ask everyone to link this post to threads that are talking about this issue.
[list]
[*]Firstly, the case of $0^0$. It is usually regarded that $0^0=1$, not because this works numerically but because it is convenient to define it this way. You will see the convenience of defining other undefined things later on in this post.

[*]What about $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$? The issue here is that $\infty$ isn't even rigorously defined in this expression. What exactly do we mean by $\infty$? Unless the example in question is put in context in a formal manner, then we say that $\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is meaningless.

[*]What about $\frac{1}{0}$? Suppose that $x=\frac{1}{0}$. Then we would have $x\cdot 0=0=1$, absurd. A more rigorous treatment of the idea is that $\lim_{x\to0}\frac{1}{x}$ does not exist in the first place, although you will see why in a calculus course. So the point is that $\frac{1}{0}$ is undefined.

[*]What about if $0.99999...=1$? An article from brilliant has a good explanation. Alternatively, you can just use a geometric series. Notice that
\begin{align*}
\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^n}&=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\frac{1}{10^n}=9\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\biggr(\frac{1}{10}\biggr)^n=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{1-\frac{1}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{\frac{1}{10}}{\frac{9}{10}}\biggr)=9\biggr(\frac{1}{9}\biggr)=\boxed{1}
\end{align*}
[*]What about $\frac{0}{0}$? Usually this is considered to be an indeterminate form, but I would also wager that this is also undefined.
[/list]
Hopefully all of these issues and their corollaries are finally put to rest. Cheers.

2nd EDIT (6/14/22): Since I originally posted this, it has since blown up so I will try to add additional information per the request of users in the thread below.

INDETERMINATE VS UNDEFINED

What makes something indeterminate? As you can see above, there are many things that are indeterminate. While definitions might vary slightly, it is the consensus that the following definition holds: A mathematical expression is be said to be indeterminate if it is not definitively or precisely determined. So how does this make, say, something like $0/0$ indeterminate? In analysis (the theory behind calculus and beyond), limits involving an algebraic combination of functions in an independent variable may often be evaluated by replacing these functions by their limits. However, if the expression obtained after this substitution does not provide sufficient information to determine the original limit, then the expression is called an indeterminate form. For example, we could say that $0/0$ is an indeterminate form.

But we need to more specific, this is still ambiguous. An indeterminate form is a mathematical expression involving at most two of $0$, $1$ or $\infty$, obtained by applying the algebraic limit theorem (a theorem in analysis, look this up for details) in the process of attempting to determine a limit, which fails to restrict that limit to one specific value or infinity, and thus does not determine the limit being calculated. This is why it is called indeterminate. Some examples of indeterminate forms are
\[0/0, \infty/\infty, \infty-\infty, \infty \times 0\]etc etc. So what makes something undefined? In the broader scope, something being undefined refers to an expression which is not assigned an interpretation or a value. A function is said to be undefined for points outside its domain. For example, the function $f:\mathbb{R}^{+}\cup\{0\}\rightarrow\mathbb{R}$ given by the mapping $x\mapsto \sqrt{x}$ is undefined for $x<0$. On the other hand, $1/0$ is undefined because dividing by $0$ is not defined in arithmetic by definition. In other words, something is undefined when it is not defined in some mathematical context.

WHEN THE WATERS GET MUDDIED

So with this notion of indeterminate and undefined, things get convoluted. First of all, just because something is indeterminate does not mean it is not undefined. For example $0/0$ is considered both indeterminate and undefined (but in the context of a limit then it is considered in indeterminate form). Additionally, this notion of something being undefined also means that we can define it in some way. To rephrase, this means that technically, we can make something that is undefined to something that is defined as long as we define it. I'll show you what I mean.

One example of making something undefined into something defined is the extended real number line, which we define as
\[\overline{\mathbb{R}}=\mathbb{R}\cup \{-\infty,+\infty\}.\]So instead of treating infinity as an idea, we define infinity (positively and negatively, mind you) as actual numbers in the reals. The advantage of doing this is for two reasons. The first is because we can turn this thing into a totally ordered set. Specifically, we can let $-\infty\le a\le \infty$ for each $a\in\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ which means that via this order topology each subset has an infimum and supremum and $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ is therefore compact. While this is nice from an analytic standpoint, extending the reals in this way can allow for interesting arithmetic! In $\overline{\mathbb{R}}$ it is perfectly OK to say that,
\begin{align*}
a + \infty = \infty + a & = \infty, & a & \neq -\infty \\
a - \infty = -\infty + a & = -\infty, & a & \neq \infty \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty] \\
a \cdot (\pm\infty) = \pm\infty \cdot a & = \mp\infty, & a & \in [-\infty, 0) \\
\frac{a}{\pm\infty} & = 0, & a & \in \mathbb{R} \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \pm\infty, & a & \in (0, +\infty) \\
\frac{\pm\infty}{a} & = \mp\infty, & a & \in (-\infty, 0).
\end{align*}So addition, multiplication, and division are all defined nicely. However, notice that we have some indeterminate forms here which are also undefined,
\[\infty-\infty,\frac{\pm\infty}{\pm\infty},\frac{\pm\infty}{0},0\cdot \pm\infty.\]So while we define certain things, we also left others undefined/indeterminate in the process! However, in the context of measure theory it is common to define $\infty \times 0=0$ as greenturtle3141 noted below. I encourage to reread what he wrote, it's great stuff! As you may notice, though, dividing by $0$ is undefined still! Is there a place where it isn't? Kind of. To do this, we can extend the complex numbers! More formally, we can define this extension as
\[\mathbb{C}^*=\mathbb{C}\cup\{\tilde{\infty}\}\]which we call the Riemann Sphere (it actually forms a sphere, pretty cool right?). As a note, $\tilde{\infty}$ means complex infinity, since we are in the complex plane now. Here's the catch: division by $0$ is allowed here! In fact, we have
\[\frac{z}{0}=\tilde{\infty},\frac{z}{\tilde{\infty}}=0.\]where $\tilde{\infty}/\tilde{\infty}$ and $0/0$ are left undefined. We also have
\begin{align*}
z+\tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne -\infty\\
z\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}, \forall z\ne 0
\end{align*}Furthermore, we actually have some nice properties with multiplication that we didn't have before. In $\mathbb{C}^*$ it holds that
\[\tilde{\infty}\times \tilde{\infty}=\tilde{\infty}\]but $\tilde{\infty}-\tilde{\infty}$ and $0\times \tilde{\infty}$ are left as undefined (unless there is an explicit need to change that somehow). One could define the projectively extended reals as we did with $\mathbb{C}^*$, by defining them as
\[{\widehat {\mathbb {R} }}=\mathbb {R} \cup \{\infty \}.\]They behave in a similar way to the Riemann Sphere, with division by $0$ also being allowed with the same indeterminate forms (in addition to some other ones).
23 replies
Arr0w
Feb 11, 2022
scannose
Sep 19, 2022
k i Marathon Threads
LauraZed   0
Jul 2, 2019
Due to excessive spam and inappropriate posts, we have locked the Prealgebra and Beginning Algebra threads.

We will either unlock these threads once we've cleaned them up or start new ones, but for now, do not start new marathon threads for these subjects. Any new marathon threads started while this announcement is up will be immediately deleted.
0 replies
LauraZed
Jul 2, 2019
0 replies
k i Basic Forum Rules and Info (Read before posting)
jellymoop   368
N May 16, 2018 by harry1234
f (Reminder: Do not post Alcumus or class homework questions on this forum. Instructions below.) f
Welcome to the Middle School Math Forum! Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the rules.

Overview:
[list]
[*] When you're posting a new topic with a math problem, give the topic a detailed title that includes the subject of the problem (not just "easy problem" or "nice problem")
[*] Stay on topic and be courteous.
[*] Hide solutions!
[*] If you see an inappropriate post in this forum, simply report the post and a moderator will deal with it. Don't make your own post telling people they're not following the rules - that usually just makes the issue worse.
[*] When you post a question that you need help solving, post what you've attempted so far and not just the question. We are here to learn from each other, not to do your homework. :P
[*] Avoid making posts just to thank someone - you can use the upvote function instead
[*] Don't make a new reply just to repeat yourself or comment on the quality of others' posts; instead, post when you have a new insight or question. You can also edit your post if it's the most recent and you want to add more information.
[*] Avoid bumping old posts.
[*] Use GameBot to post alcumus questions.
[*] If you need general MATHCOUNTS/math competition advice, check out the threads below.
[*] Don't post other users' real names.
[*] Advertisements are not allowed. You can advertise your forum on your profile with a link, on your blog, and on user-created forums that permit forum advertisements.
[/list]

Here are links to more detailed versions of the rules. These are from the older forums, so you can overlook "Classroom math/Competition math only" instructions.
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What belongs on this forum?
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Mathcounts and how to learn

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Marathons!
Relays might be a better way to describe it, but these threads definitely go the distance! One person starts off by posting a problem, and the next person comes up with a solution and a new problem for another user to solve. Here's some of the frequently active marathons running in this forum:
[list][*]Algebra
[*]Prealgebra
[*]Proofs
[*]Factoring
[*]Geometry
[*]Counting & Probability
[*]Number Theory[/list]
Some of these haven't received attention in a while, but these are the main ones for their respective subjects. Rather than starting a new marathon, please give the existing ones a shot first.

You can also view marathons via the Marathon tag.

Think this list is incomplete or needs changes? Let the mods know and we'll take a look.
368 replies
jellymoop
May 8, 2015
harry1234
May 16, 2018
Equal angles with midpoint of $AH$
Stuttgarden   2
N a minute ago by HormigaCebolla
Source: Spain MO 2025 P4
Let $ABC$ be an acute triangle with circumcenter $O$ and orthocenter $H$, satisfying $AB<AC$. The tangent line at $A$ to the circumcicle of $ABC$ intersects $BC$ in $T$. Let $X$ be the midpoint of $AH$. Prove that $\angle ATX=\angle OTB$.
2 replies
Stuttgarden
Mar 31, 2025
HormigaCebolla
a minute ago
3 var inequalities
sqing   2
N 16 minutes ago by sqing
Source: Own
Let $ a,b> 0 $ and $ a+b\leq  2ab . $ Prove that
$$ \frac{   a + b }{ a^2(1+ b^2)} \leq\frac{1 }{\sqrt 2}-\frac{1 }{2}$$$$ \frac{   a +ab+ b }{ a^2(1+ b^2)} \leq \sqrt 2-1$$$$ \frac{   a +a^2b^2+ b }{ a^2(1+ b^2)} \leq\frac{\sqrt5 }{2}$$
2 replies
1 viewing
sqing
Yesterday at 1:13 PM
sqing
16 minutes ago
Flipping L's
MarkBcc168   12
N 36 minutes ago by zRevenant
Source: IMO Shortlist 2023 C1
Let $m$ and $n$ be positive integers greater than $1$. In each unit square of an $m\times n$ grid lies a coin with its tail side up. A move consists of the following steps.
[list=1]
[*]select a $2\times 2$ square in the grid;
[*]flip the coins in the top-left and bottom-right unit squares;
[*]flip the coin in either the top-right or bottom-left unit square.
[/list]
Determine all pairs $(m,n)$ for which it is possible that every coin shows head-side up after a finite number of moves.

Thanasin Nampaisarn, Thailand
12 replies
MarkBcc168
Jul 17, 2024
zRevenant
36 minutes ago
\frac{1}{5-2a}
Havu   1
N 2 hours ago by Havu
Let $a,b,c \ge \frac{1}{2}$ and $a^2+b^2+c^2=3$. Find minimum:
\[P=\frac{1}{5-2a}+\frac{1}{5-2b}+\frac{1}{5-2c}.\]
1 reply
1 viewing
Havu
Yesterday at 9:56 AM
Havu
2 hours ago
Weird Similarity
mithu542   4
N Yesterday at 1:38 AM by EthanNg6
Is it just me or are the 2023 national sprint #21 and 2025 state target #4 strangely similar?
[quote=2023 Natioinal Sprint #21] A right triangle with integer side lengths has perimeter $N$ feet and area $N$ ft^2. What is the arithmetic mean of all possible values of $N$?[/quote]
[quote=2025 State Target #4]Suppose a right triangle has an area of 20 cm^2 and a perimeter of 40 cm. What is
the length of the hypotenuse, in centimeters?[/quote]
4 replies
mithu542
Apr 18, 2025
EthanNg6
Yesterday at 1:38 AM
geometry problem
kjhgyuio   8
N Yesterday at 1:36 AM by EthanNg6
........
8 replies
kjhgyuio
Apr 20, 2025
EthanNg6
Yesterday at 1:36 AM
Area of Polygon
AIME15   49
N Tuesday at 5:55 PM by ReticulatedPython
The area of polygon $ ABCDEF$, in square units, is

IMAGE

\[ \textbf{(A)}\ 24 \qquad
\textbf{(B)}\ 30 \qquad
\textbf{(C)}\ 46 \qquad
\textbf{(D)}\ 66 \qquad
\textbf{(E)}\ 74
\]
49 replies
AIME15
Jan 12, 2009
ReticulatedPython
Tuesday at 5:55 PM
Geometry Transformation Problems
ReticulatedPython   7
N Tuesday at 3:18 PM by ReticulatedPython
Problem 1:
A regular hexagon of side length $1$ is rotated $360$ degrees about one side. The space through which the hexagon travels during the rotation forms a solid. Find the volume of this solid.

Problem 2:

A regular octagon of side length $1$ is rotated $360$ degrees about one side. The space through which the octagon travels through during the rotation forms a solid. Find the volume of this solid.

Source:Own

Hint

Useful Formulas
7 replies
ReticulatedPython
Apr 17, 2025
ReticulatedPython
Tuesday at 3:18 PM
2024 MathCounts Nationals Target #2
UberPiggy   4
N Apr 20, 2025 by ethan2011
I know target #2 is supposed to be easy but I literally cannot figure out how to do this one. Could someone help please?

Trapezoid $ABCD$ has parallel bases $AB$ and $CD$, $M$ is the midpoint of side $AD$ and $m \angle{BCM} = 90^{\circ}$. If $AB = BC = 7$ cm and $CD = 18$ cm, what is $BM$? Express your answer in simplest radical form.

The answer is answer
This came with a diagram but I'm too lazy to attach it here
4 replies
UberPiggy
Apr 19, 2025
ethan2011
Apr 20, 2025
Geometry 7.3 tangent
luciazhu1105   5
N Apr 13, 2025 by sanaops9
I have trouble getting tangents and most things in the chapter, so some help would be appreciated!
5 replies
luciazhu1105
Apr 9, 2025
sanaops9
Apr 13, 2025
k Wrong Answers Only Pt.2
MathRook7817   72
N Apr 10, 2025 by MathRook7817
Problem: What is the area of a triangle with side lengths 13,14, and 15?
WRONG ANSWERS ONLY!

other one got locked for some reason
72 replies
MathRook7817
Apr 9, 2025
MathRook7817
Apr 10, 2025
A geometry problem
Deomad123   2
N Apr 9, 2025 by Apple_maths60
Let $ABCD$ be an cyclic quadrilateral with $AB=8cm$,$BC=7cm$,$CD=6cm$ and $DA=5cm$ Find:$\frac{AC}{BD}$
2 replies
Deomad123
Apr 8, 2025
Apple_maths60
Apr 9, 2025
Good resources for Mathcounts and AMCs
HoneyHap   5
N Apr 7, 2025 by HoneyHap
Hi people!
I have been and aops user for only a few months and not an active one either, just a user checking other posts and competitions. This is actually my first post. I am in 7th grade and only this year I have actually started locking in on competition math, before that, I didn’t really care about Mathcounts and AMCs. So, I hone my problem-solving skills by lightly doing some math problems. I have signed up for a lot of math competitions this month and am struggling to prepare properly with the resources I have. Do you guys have any resources you use to prepare for math competitions and that are actually helpful to use to prepare for competitions in a short amount of time. I am looking for resources that first teach you stuff and give you problems, like guided notes and handouts. I have few aops books like “Competition Math for Middle School” and “Intermediate Algebra”, but they’re not enough. I have learnt Algebra 1 and started doing high school geometry and a bit of Algebra 2 at home. Do let me know if you have any suggestions!
5 replies
HoneyHap
Apr 6, 2025
HoneyHap
Apr 7, 2025
k 1000th Post!
PikaPika999   8
N Apr 5, 2025 by PikaPika999
When I had less than 25 posts on AoPS, I saw many people create threads about them getting 1000th posts. I thought I would never hit 1000 posts, but here we are, this is my 1000th post.

As a lot of users like to do, I'll write my math story:

Daycare
Preschool
Kindergarten
First Grade
Second Grade
Third Grade
Fourth Grade
Fifth Grade
Sixth Grade
Quick Quote that was from MLK that I edited

In conclusion, AoPS has helped me improve my math. I have also made many new friends on AoPS!

Finally, I would like to say thank you to all the new friends I made and all the instructors on AoPS that taught me!

Minor side note, but
8 replies
PikaPika999
Apr 5, 2025
PikaPika999
Apr 5, 2025
The Karamata inequality
darij grinberg   41
N Sep 7, 2014 by Fu_Manchu
Source: Majorization Theory
Since I was asked about it I'm posting it.

We begin with a definition:

1. Let $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ be arbitrary real numbers satisfying $ x_1 \geq x_2 \geq ... \geq x_n$ and $ y_1 \geq y_2 \geq ... \geq y_n$. Now, if we have all the following conditions fulfilled:

$ x_1 \geq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \geq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \geq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \geq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$

(mind the equality sign in the last condition; it is not a $ \geq$ sign!), then we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. We write this in the form $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \succ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$.

Now, if instead of

$ x_1 \geq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \geq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \geq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \geq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$,

we have the conditions

$ x_1 \leq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \leq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \leq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \leq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$

fulfilled (i. e., the same conditions with all $ \geq$'s replaced by $ \leq$'s), then we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. We write this in the form $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \prec \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. Of course, this is equivalent to $ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right) \succ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$.

2. Thus we have defined the notions "majorizes" and "minorizes" only for non-increasing arrays (i. e. for arrays satisfying $ x_1 \geq x_2 \geq ... \geq x_n$ and $ y_1 \geq y_2 \geq ... \geq y_n$). Now, assume that $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ are just arbitrary real numbers, without any conditions. Then, let $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ be the non-increasing permutation of the array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$, i. e. the permutation of the array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ that satisfies $ X_1 \geq X_2 \geq ... \geq X_n$. Similarly, let $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$ be the non-increasing permutation of the array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$, i. e. the permutation of the array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ that satisfies $ Y_1 \geq Y_2 \geq ... \geq Y_n$. The number arrays $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ and $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$ are both non-increasing, and hence we have defined majorization for such arrays.

Then, we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if and only if the number array $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$. In this case, we write $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \succ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$.

Similarly, we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if and only if the number array $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$. In this case, we write $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \prec \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. Again this is equivalent to $ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right) \succ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$.

3. So we have defined the terms "majorize" and "minorize" for any two number arrays. It should be noted that majorization is a partial order on the set of number arrays, not a total order - i. e., not for every pair of two number arrays $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ and $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ one can say that either the first one majorizes the second one, or the second one majorizes the first one. It often happens that none of the arrays majorizes or minorizes the other one. But sometimes when you have some special arrays, you can prove that one of them majorizes the other one.

4. Now, the Karamata inequality, also called the Majorization Inequality or the Hardy-Littlewood inequality, states that if $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ are $ 2n$ reals from an interval $ I\subseteq\mathbb{R}$ such that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$, and $ f: I\to\mathbb{R}$ is any convex function, then

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq f\left( y_1\right) + f\left( y_2\right) + ... + f\left( y_n\right)$.

If $ f: I\to\mathbb{R}$ is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq f\left( y_1\right) + f\left( y_2\right) + ... + f\left( y_n\right)$.

If the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ instead of majorizing it, then both inequalities are reversed.

5. The Jensen inequality for real numbers is a special case of the Karamata inequality. In fact, if $ m = \frac {x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, then it is easy to show that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$. Hence, the Karamata inequality yields:

If f(x) is any convex function, then

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$ \frac {f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \geq f\left( m\right)$.

If f(x) is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$ \frac {f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \leq f\left( m\right)$.

Of course, this is exactly the Jensen inequality for $ n$ reals.

6. The definition of majorizing and minorizing number arrays given above is somewhat unsatisfying from an intuitive point of view, since it does not help one to imagine how an array majorizing another array looks like. Unfortunately, this is partly inherent to the notion of majorization, which indeed is quite unintuitive. For a - rather facile - visualization of the notion, you can imagine that a number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes a number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if the two arrays have the same sum of numbers, but the numbers of the first array are set wider apart than those of the second array, while those of the second array lie closer together. From this intuitive viewpoint, it is clear why the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$, where $ m = \frac {x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$: In fact, the two number arrays have the same sum of elements, but the elements of the second number array lie nearer to each other (they are all equal). Alas, this viewpoint does not help one to really understand what majorization is about.

Well, I know there is more to say. For instance, the Karamata inequality has a kind of converse, but I am not sure how it is formulated, so I leave this to the other MathLinkers more used to inequalities.

Darij
41 replies
darij grinberg
Aug 5, 2004
Fu_Manchu
Sep 7, 2014
The Karamata inequality
G H J
Source: Majorization Theory
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darij grinberg
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Since I was asked about it I'm posting it.

We begin with a definition:

1. Let $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ be arbitrary real numbers satisfying $ x_1 \geq x_2 \geq ... \geq x_n$ and $ y_1 \geq y_2 \geq ... \geq y_n$. Now, if we have all the following conditions fulfilled:

$ x_1 \geq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \geq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \geq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \geq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$

(mind the equality sign in the last condition; it is not a $ \geq$ sign!), then we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. We write this in the form $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \succ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$.

Now, if instead of

$ x_1 \geq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \geq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \geq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \geq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$,

we have the conditions

$ x_1 \leq y_1$;
$ x_1 + x_2 \leq y_1 + y_2$;
$ x_1 + x_2 + x_3 \leq y_1 + y_2 + y_3$;
...
generally $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_k \leq y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_k$ for any natural k with $ 1 \leq k \leq n - 1$;
and $ x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n = y_1 + y_2 + ... + y_n$

fulfilled (i. e., the same conditions with all $ \geq$'s replaced by $ \leq$'s), then we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. We write this in the form $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \prec \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. Of course, this is equivalent to $ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right) \succ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$.

2. Thus we have defined the notions "majorizes" and "minorizes" only for non-increasing arrays (i. e. for arrays satisfying $ x_1 \geq x_2 \geq ... \geq x_n$ and $ y_1 \geq y_2 \geq ... \geq y_n$). Now, assume that $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ are just arbitrary real numbers, without any conditions. Then, let $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ be the non-increasing permutation of the array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$, i. e. the permutation of the array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ that satisfies $ X_1 \geq X_2 \geq ... \geq X_n$. Similarly, let $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$ be the non-increasing permutation of the array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$, i. e. the permutation of the array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ that satisfies $ Y_1 \geq Y_2 \geq ... \geq Y_n$. The number arrays $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ and $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$ are both non-increasing, and hence we have defined majorization for such arrays.

Then, we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if and only if the number array $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$. In this case, we write $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \succ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$.

Similarly, we say that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if and only if the number array $ \left(X_1;\;X_2;\;...;\;X_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(Y_1;\;Y_2;\;...;\;Y_n\right)$. In this case, we write $ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right) \prec \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$. Again this is equivalent to $ \left( y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right) \succ \left( x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$.

3. So we have defined the terms "majorize" and "minorize" for any two number arrays. It should be noted that majorization is a partial order on the set of number arrays, not a total order - i. e., not for every pair of two number arrays $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ and $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ one can say that either the first one majorizes the second one, or the second one majorizes the first one. It often happens that none of the arrays majorizes or minorizes the other one. But sometimes when you have some special arrays, you can prove that one of them majorizes the other one.

4. Now, the Karamata inequality, also called the Majorization Inequality or the Hardy-Littlewood inequality, states that if $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, $ y_1$, $ y_2$, ..., $ y_n$ are $ 2n$ reals from an interval $ I\subseteq\mathbb{R}$ such that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$, and $ f: I\to\mathbb{R}$ is any convex function, then

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq f\left( y_1\right) + f\left( y_2\right) + ... + f\left( y_n\right)$.

If $ f: I\to\mathbb{R}$ is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq f\left( y_1\right) + f\left( y_2\right) + ... + f\left( y_n\right)$.

If the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ minorizes the number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ instead of majorizing it, then both inequalities are reversed.

5. The Jensen inequality for real numbers is a special case of the Karamata inequality. In fact, if $ m = \frac {x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$, then it is easy to show that the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$. Hence, the Karamata inequality yields:

If f(x) is any convex function, then

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$ \frac {f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \geq f\left( m\right)$.

If f(x) is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$ f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$ \frac {f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \leq f\left( m\right)$.

Of course, this is exactly the Jensen inequality for $ n$ reals.

6. The definition of majorizing and minorizing number arrays given above is somewhat unsatisfying from an intuitive point of view, since it does not help one to imagine how an array majorizing another array looks like. Unfortunately, this is partly inherent to the notion of majorization, which indeed is quite unintuitive. For a - rather facile - visualization of the notion, you can imagine that a number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes a number array $ \left(y_1;\;y_2;\;...;\;y_n\right)$ if the two arrays have the same sum of numbers, but the numbers of the first array are set wider apart than those of the second array, while those of the second array lie closer together. From this intuitive viewpoint, it is clear why the number array $ \left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $ \left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$, where $ m = \frac {x_1 + x_2 + ... + x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $ x_1$, $ x_2$, ..., $ x_n$: In fact, the two number arrays have the same sum of elements, but the elements of the second number array lie nearer to each other (they are all equal). Alas, this viewpoint does not help one to really understand what majorization is about.

Well, I know there is more to say. For instance, the Karamata inequality has a kind of converse, but I am not sure how it is formulated, so I leave this to the other MathLinkers more used to inequalities.

Darij
This post has been edited 5 times. Last edited by darij grinberg, Mar 29, 2009, 12:10 AM
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ADMann94
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Where can I find a proof of this?

Alex
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fuzzylogic
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#3 • 2 Y
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ADMann94 wrote:
Where can I find a proof of this?

Alex

Probably in this book.
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ADMann94
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Thanks!

Alex
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Megus
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I heard that Karamata inequality is indeed Littlewood-Hardy inequality so which name is correct or maybe both [the question is: which name shall I pull out during the contest ]?
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darij grinberg
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#6 • 4 Y
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Best refer to it as "Karamata Majorization Inequality". As for Littlewood and Hardy, it's true that they have discovered it independently from Karamata, but I personally have never seen anybody naming it for Littlewood and Hardy.

Darij
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Megus
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#7 • 2 Y
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Ok - I asked beacuse of guys who laughed at me when had heard Karamata :D
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flip2004
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Let $ {\mathbf x}=(x_1,x_2,...,x_n)  , {\mathbf y}=(y_1,y_2,...,y_n) $
and $ {\mathbf A}=||a_{i,j}|| $ a $n\times n $ matrix having properties:
1) all $a_{i,j} \ge 0 $ ,
2) $ \sum\limits_{i=1}^na_{i,j}= \sum\limits_{j=1}^{n}a_{i,j}=1 $ for $ i,j=1,2,...,n.$

If $ {\mathbf x} $ is given in $ {\mathbf R}^n $ and $ {\mathbf y}^T=A{\mathbf x}^T $ ( where ${\mathbf x}^T $ denotes the transpose of ${\mathbf x}$) , what we can say about $ {\mathbf y} $ ?
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darij grinberg
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#9 • 6 Y
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Well, we can say that $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} \succ \left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $. And conversely, if we have two vectors $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} $ and $\left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $ such that $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} \succ \left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $, then we can find a matrix $\mathbf{A}$ with the properties 1) and 2) such that $ {\mathbf y}^T=\mathbf{A}{\mathbf x}^T $. This is a result found by Karamata.

Darij
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by darij grinberg, Oct 17, 2004, 6:42 PM
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Myth
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Actually, true Jensen inequality is
\[a_1f(x_1)+a_2f(x_2)+\dots+a_nf(x_n)\geq f(a_1x_1+\dots+a_nx_n)\],
where $f$ is convex function, $a_i\in[0,1]$ and $a_1+\dots+a_n=1$.
$a_i=\frac{1}{n}$ is a particular case only.
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flip2004
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Hi all,
here is a very interesting paper related to discussed subject:

[*] A. OSTROWSKI , Sur quelques applications des fonctions convexes et concaves au sens de I. Schur, J.Math.Pures.Appl., (9) 31 (1952) 253-292.

Other possible references :

[1] G.H.Hardy , J.E.Littlewood, G.P\'olya , Some simple inequalities satisfied by convex functions, Messenger Math., 58 (1928/29) 145-152.
[2] J.Karamata , Sur une in\'egalit\'e relative aux fonctions convexes, Publ.Math.Univ. Belgrade 1 (1932) 145-158.
[3] T.Popoviciu , Notes sur les fonctions convexes d'ordre sup\'erieur ,III,Mathematica (Cluj) 16 (1940) 74-86.
[4] T.Popoviciu , Notes sur les fonctions convexes d'ordre sup\'erieur ,IV,Disquisitiones Mathematicae 1(1940) 163-171.
[5] T.Popoviciu , Les fonctions convexes, Actualit\'esci.Ind. No.992,Paris,1945.
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Xixas
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I have a very simple question, which does not let me understand many things. So, can anyone explain me, what functions are called convex and what functions are called concave?
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Myth
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Let $f:[a,b]\to \mathbb{R}$. Then $f$ is called convex function iff
\[k\cdot f(x)+(1-k)\cdot f(y)\geq f(kx+(1-k)y)\quad \forall x,y\in [a,b],\ \forall k\in[0,1].\]

If function $f$ is differentiable then $f$ is convex iff $f''(x)\geq 0$ for all $x\in[a,b]$.
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Xixas
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Another question: which functions are differentable? Can you give an example of non-differentable function?
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Myth
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Take $f(x)=|x|$. It is convex non-differentiable function.
To know what is differentiable functions you need any analysis book.
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perfect_radio
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darij wrote:
Well, I know there is more to say. For instance, the Karamata inequality has a kind of converse, but I am not sure how it is formulated, so I leave this to the other MathLinkers more used to inequalities.

anyone know what is this converse?
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by perfect_radio, Apr 23, 2006, 5:11 PM
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Bojan Basic
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I think it is the following (although I see absolutely no use of it):

If $\displaystyle\sum f(x_i)\geqslant\sum f(y_i)$ for every convex function $f$ then $(x)\succ(y)$.

Could somebody post a counter example or (even better) prove this?
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fleeting_guest
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The converse is proved by considering the inequality for:
constant functions (conclusion: vectors $x$ and $y$ have equal number of components),
linear functions (conclusion: $\Sigma x = \Sigma y$), and
functions of the form $\max(0,x-a)$ (conclusion: the majorization conditions).

Any convex $f$ is (on the given finite set of points) equal to a positive linear combination of these 3 types of functions.
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fleeting_guest
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darij grinberg wrote:
Best refer to it as "Karamata Majorization Inequality". As for Littlewood and Hardy, it's true that they have discovered it independently from Karamata, but I personally have never seen anybody naming it for Littlewood and Hardy.

Karamata published later than Hardy,Littlewood and Polya, and in any case majorization was independently discovered many times before and after all these publications. There is a history in Marshall and Olkin's book on majorization. In the Anglo-Saxon countries it is called "majorization inequality" or "Hardy-Littlewood-Polya" majorization inequality".
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darij grinberg
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Bojan Basic wrote:
I think it is the following (although I see absolutely no use of it):

If $\displaystyle\sum f(x_i)\geqslant\sum f(y_i)$ for every convex function $f$ then $(x)\succ(y)$.

There is a stonger version of this: If $\sum f\left(x_i\right)\geq\sum f\left(y_i\right)$ holds for every function f of the form f(x) = |x - u| (with u constant), then $\left(x\right)\succ\left(y\right)$. This is actually Lemma 1 in http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=19097 post #11.

darij
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Peter
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#21 • 3 Y
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darij grinberg wrote:
5. The Jensen inequality is a special case of the Karamata inequality. In fact, if $\displaystyle m=\frac{x_1+x_2+...+x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $x_1$, $x_2$, ..., $x_n$, then you can easily show (little exercise!) that the number array $\left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $\left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$. Hence, the Karamata inequality yields:

If f(x) is any convex function, then

$f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$\displaystyle \frac{f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \geq f\left( m\right)$.

If f(x) is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$\displaystyle \frac{f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \leq f\left( m\right)$.

Of course, this is exactly the Jensen inequality.
Myth wrote:
Actually, true Jensen inequality is
\[a_1f(x_1)+a_2f(x_2)+\dots+a_nf(x_n)\geq f(a_1x_1+\dots+a_nx_n)\],
where $f$ is convex function, $a_i\in[0,1]$ and $a_1+\dots+a_n=1$.
$a_i=\frac{1}{n}$ is a particular case only.

Ok, then is there a way to deduce "real" jensen ineq from karamata? :)

It looks like we could extend to rationals and then to reals, but I wonder if someone had a nicer proof, or someone knew sort of a "weighed karamata"?
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k2c901_1
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#22 • 3 Y
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Is there a continuous or integral analog to this inequality?
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MysticTerminator
3697 posts
#23 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
Peter VDD wrote:
darij grinberg wrote:
5. The Jensen inequality is a special case of the Karamata inequality. In fact, if $\displaystyle m=\frac{x_1+x_2+...+x_n}{n}$ is the arithmetic mean of the numbers $x_1$, $x_2$, ..., $x_n$, then you can easily show (little exercise!) that the number array $\left(x_1;\;x_2;\;...;\;x_n\right)$ majorizes the number array $\left(m;\;m;\;...;\;m\right)$. Hence, the Karamata inequality yields:

If f(x) is any convex function, then

$f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \geq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$\displaystyle \frac{f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \geq f\left( m\right)$.

If f(x) is a concave function instead, then we instead have

$f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right) \leq n f\left( m\right)$,

i. e.

$\displaystyle \frac{f\left( x_1\right) + f\left( x_2\right) + ... + f\left( x_n\right)}{n} \leq f\left( m\right)$.

Of course, this is exactly the Jensen inequality.
Myth wrote:
Actually, true Jensen inequality is
\[a_1f(x_1)+a_2f(x_2)+\dots+a_nf(x_n)\geq f(a_1x_1+\dots+a_nx_n)\],
where $f$ is convex function, $a_i\in[0,1]$ and $a_1+\dots+a_n=1$.
$a_i=\frac{1}{n}$ is a particular case only.

Ok, then is there a way to deduce "real" jensen ineq from karamata? :)

It looks like we could extend to rationals and then to reals, but I wonder if someone had a nicer proof, or someone knew sort of a "weighed karamata"?

I think Darij posted something known as "Fuchs" in theorems & formula section
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lomos_lupin
708 posts
#24 • 2 Y
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Hmm.Guys do we have the Karamata for the productive case to :

Like this:
let $X=(x_1,...,x_n),Y=(y_1,...,y_n)$That $x \succ Y$ and $f$ be a convex function.
then
$f(x_1)*f(x_2)*...*f(x_n) \ge f(y_1)*f(y_2)*...*f(y_n)$

An idea
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Soarer
2589 posts
#25 • 2 Y
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this kind of majorization exists, and the inequality you mentioned exists, even for the weighted version I think it exists. But then, you can just take log and it all becomes the normal one.
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Soarer
2589 posts
#26 • 2 Y
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darij grinberg wrote:
Well, we can say that $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} \succ \left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $. And conversely, if we have two vectors $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} $ and $\left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $ such that $\left\{ \mathbf{x}\right\} \succ \left\{ \mathbf{y}\right\} $, then we can find a matrix $\mathbf{A}$ with the properties 1) and 2) such that $ {\mathbf y}^T=\mathbf{A}{\mathbf x}^T $. This is a result found by Karamata.

Darij

can you show a proof?
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perfect_radio
2607 posts
#27 • 2 Y
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i have two questions:

(1) Can Karamata be proven by Jensen?

(2) How do you prove the Fuchs inequality?
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Peter
3615 posts
#28 • 2 Y
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perfect_radio wrote:
(2) How do you prove the Fuchs inequality?
I wonder about that one too... however I'm afraid that it's not quite elementary.

PS: Can one prove weighted jensen/muirhead from fuchs
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Diarmuid
176 posts
#29 • 2 Y
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lomos_lupin wrote:
Hmm.Guys do we have the Karamata for the productive case to :

Like this:
let $X=(x_1,...,x_n),Y=(y_1,...,y_n)$That $x \succ Y$ and $f$ be a convex function.
then
$f(x_1)*f(x_2)*...*f(x_n) \ge f(y_1)*f(y_2)*...*f(y_n)$

My guess (although it's only a guess) would be that you'd need a stronger condition on $f$ for this to hold - probably something like $g(x)=\ln f(x)$ would need to be convex, to convert it back to the additive form.
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DPopov
1398 posts
#30 • 2 Y
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So is Muirhead simply a special case of Karamata?
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Rzeszut
581 posts
#31 • 3 Y
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k2c901_1 wrote:
Is there a continuous or integral analog to this inequality?
I also wonder if the following is true:
Let $\varphi$ and $\psi$ be two functions defined on interval $\langle a,b\rangle$ satisfying:
1. $\int_{a}^{c}\varphi(t)dt\geq \int_{a}^{c}\psi(t)dt$ for any $c\in \langle a,b\rangle$;
2. $\int_{a}^{b}\varphi(t)dt= \int_{a}^{b}\psi(t)dt$.
Then for any convex function $f$ we have \[\int_{a}^{b}f\left(\varphi(x)\right)\geq \int_{a}^{b}f\left(\psi(x)\right).\] I hope someone can prove it or give a counterexample.
Maybe some majorization theory theorems work also for majorization defined in 1. and 2.? Maybe continuous Muirhead?
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perfect_radio
2607 posts
#32 • 2 Y
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Peter VDD proved here something that reminds me of Karamata for two variables.
Peter VDD wrote:
Theorem.
Let $f(t)$ be a smooth nonnegative function which is convex on $[a,b]$ and let $[x,y]\subset[a,b]$ such that $x+y=a+b$. Then we have
\[\frac{\dsp\int^{b}_{a}f(t) dt}{b-a}\ge \frac{\dsp\int^{y}_{x}f(t) dt}{y-x}.\]

But it's not really what you want. It would be very nice if your conjecture was true :)
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bodan
267 posts
#33 • 2 Y
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The inequality Rzeszut proposed exists, and I think even Muirhead for integrals exists. I will post them as soon as I find them.
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bodan
267 posts
#34 • 4 Y
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Look here.
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Rzeszut
581 posts
#35 • 2 Y
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bodan wrote:
Look here.
Thanks a lot. :coolspeak:
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sunchips
202 posts
#36 • 1 Y
Y by Adventure10
On Olympiad competition, if you use Karamata, do you need justification? or can you just cite it.

For example, I heard that often markers discourage the use of Muirhead.
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amgaa36
5 posts
#37 • 2 Y
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Is there any example?
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derezin
32 posts
#38 • 2 Y
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Megus wrote:
Ok - I asked beacuse of guys who laughed at me when had heard Karamata :D
And we will always laugh! :heli:
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BG Yoda
163 posts
#39 • 2 Y
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Can someone give me links with problems solved by Karamata ineq , please :oops: ?
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quangpbc
533 posts
#40 • 2 Y
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Eg

http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?search_id=1726203183&t=166411

http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?search_id=1726203183&t=163149

http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?search_id=1726203183&t=160484

Please use Search tool, you can find a lots of ex about Karamata inequality :wink:

http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/search.php
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BG Yoda
163 posts
#41 • 1 Y
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Thank you very much , quangpbc :thumbup:

i'm new in the forum and because of that i didn't used the search function :blush:
next time i'll know abaut it and i'll use it . thanks for that , too :D
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Fu_Manchu
45 posts
#42 • 2 Y
Y by Adventure10, Mango247
I post a more general version of Karamata's inequality in here.
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