Perils of Mispricing

by rrusczyk, Jun 17, 2006, 3:21 PM

As anyone (even me) will tell you, I made one large mistake when I started the AoPS school - I dramatically underpriced the classes. I did so partially expecting more students, but mostly underestimating the amount of time required to both run the classes well and communicate with parents and students about the classes. (Some of you may remember the initial classes were $\$[/dollar]32$ audited and $\$[/dollar]75$ evaluated.) To give you an idea how badly mispriced the classes still are, I'll note that group instruction in our area runs around $\$[/dollar]20$ per hour, and we're not even talking about highly specialized instruction such as we offer. Currently, our classes run around $\$[/dollar]5-\$[/dollar]7$/hr, and that's not counting grading time, and the fact that we typically have 2 instructors in each class. For another comparison, we're roughly 1/3-1/5 the price of online classes like EPGY, and we offer something that, unlike EPGY, is very hard to find elsewhere.

So, back to the error of mispricing - basically what has happened is that we at AoPS have heavily subsidized the school. Meanwhile, we offer a pile of resources on the site for free (and will add several more in the coming months), we run the USAMTS and may not even break even on that, and we invest a few hundred hours a year in our local Math Circle. (Not to mention the degree to which we subsidized the expansion of the USAMO.)

Unfortunately, this is not all sustainable. At some point, we have to start bringing in revenue somewhere, or start focusing more on activities that clearly already do so. Therefore, we cut back on the Olympiad classes (which are the smallest of our classes by far), and encourage students to enroll in WOOT (which we also subsidize, but not as heavily as we do everything else). While we understand the frustration of those students who have to stretch to afford WOOT and could have afforded the Olympiad classes, we ask that they understand our position as well. And this gets to the peril of mispricing on the low side - offer something too low for too long and people begin to think that's the price for it, rather than realizing it's being subsidized by something else. Had we never offered the Olympiad classes in the first place (which in retrospect would certainly have been the financially correct decision), no one ever would have noticed, nor would many think of WOOT as 'expensive', particularly considering that WOOT is still a small fraction of the cost of specialized instruction you'll find anywhere else.

I think a lot of the difficulty of pricing stems from the nature of the good we produce: education. I would like to be able to offer a quality education to everyone who wants it. It feels like a good that should be free. But that's simply infeasible - we have to eat. So, we create some resources that are free - the community, the Math Jams, the Math Circle, the USAMTS. And we'll add some more in the next few months. But to pay for those, we'll offer resources that are not free. The problem comes when we offer resources that are not free, but are not nearly the correct price, as we have done for a long time with our classes.

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13 Comments

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You guys (the AoPS staff) have been spoiling us for so long. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the AoPS books, classes, forums, USAMTS, etc.

There are probably some benefits to your initial low pricing. For example, if it were higher, I probably wouldn't have taken any classes and might not be a member (or a very active one). I suspect there were other people like me. Offering low prices allowed you to build up a base of support. Now AoPS has expanded enormously and slowly raising your prices seems like the right thing to do. Your classes have been proven to be successful and higher costs are needed to expand AoPS.

You can always count on my support and service. I'm always willing to do whatever's in my power to help you. If I ever get back in the green after college debts, my support should hopefully be more substantial :P

by joml88, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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The education AoPS offers is extremely valuable. There are few things one could buy that would be more valuable. Charity (subsidizing the school) is nice, but the best thing would be for AoPS to make a good profit and expand as much as possible--I'd hope everyone here feels the same way.

by Aunt Sally, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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I think some of the kids might discuss this with their parents, and suggest when they are allocating their tax deductible donations, they might be able to find some money for AoPS. It is a very worthy cause!! (of course, after writing this, I thought I should go donate... It was surprisingly difficult to find the link).

Last year my son did WOOT, Olympic Problem Solving, and AIME practice. It was a fair amount of money, but a lot less than the EPGY Physics C class, and it was clear to me you guys put a lot more effort into the class.

Anyway, it paid off, because it looks like next year he can get WOOT for free :)

by lfm, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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You could borrow the somethingawful business model and charge 10 bux for forum registration. You also could add banner ads for various math affilated websites/services.

Also, a 25% increase in course costs would be very reasonable, especially since you have clearly established the quality of your products.

by blahblahblah, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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I think the last remark is more than okay. But I don't think charging people money for registration has only few benefits, e.g. preventing multiple registrations by the same person. Though 10 dollars is about a dinner for Americans/Canadians. But for other people, especially East-European, Asian, African countries that is a lot of money. Most don't have credit cards. And it will be impossible to maintain a proper flow of national olmypiad problems for the resources section.
Yeah I agree with Joe. I completely support AoPS. I still remember like writing thousands of emails to olympiad people, math teachers and professors to join ML/AoPS and to retrieve some old IMO Shortlists/Longlists.
AoPS/ML is a true and worthy successor of John Scholes' Kalva site. The progress on the site and the flow of problems is just incredible and simply cannot be maintained by any single person these times. It is just amazing how many USAMO people, IMO people including lots of gold medal winners or even perfect scorers the forum has supported. And the more important many people learned to appreciate the fun of problem-solving.
Good job. Long live to AoPS and ML. :)

by orl, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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blahblahblah wrote:
You could borrow the somethingawful business model and charge 10 bux for forum registration. You also could add banner ads for various math affilated websites/services.

Also, a 25% increase in course costs would be very reasonable, especially since you have clearly established the quality of your products.
I think this is a bad idea (the charging for registration). Many people would balk at this, causing many potential members not to join. I probably would have been one of them. Apart from the actual cost, paying is a great deal more of a hassle than what is is now.

Anyhow, good job AoPS! I completely understand the increase of cost. I decided long ago that if ever I become rich and powerful, I will send a large sum your way :lol: .

by Boy Soprano II, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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Is there any way to easily donate to aops for chairity? I know quite a few people who love charities simply for the tax deductions.
Would it go to aops foundation, and not aops inc?

by rzsolt, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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Here's the link to the AoPS Foundation website for those interested.

by joml88, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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joml: Indeed, getting some people we otherwise would not have is a large benefit. I fear we might miss some of those people now, but I think the site has grown large enough outside the classes that those people can still benefit quite a bit.

Aunt Sally: That's what we're thinking, too. :)

Regarding fees for the Forum: That's something we won't do (I'm a little surprised that model works anywhere besides, say, software/hardware support). I want to move towards the model of 'bunch of free stuff + bunch of appropriately priced stuff,' instead of 'bunch of stuff that costs something, but not the right amount'.

As for donations, contributions to the Foundation do not directly affect the company. They'll be put to good use supporting a variety of programs that involve problem solving education. Contributions to the company are not tax-deductible. However, if you wanted to do both, probably the easiest way to do it would be to purchase AoPS materials and donate them to a non-profit (e.g. a school or math team or whatever) that would use them.

Thanks to those who want to help - one great way to do that is simply spread the word. Bringing more people to the site will likely help even more than money.

by rrusczyk, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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I'm really glad I read this entry - it's very reminiscent of the experience I've had with Cody Bowl. Just replace "money" with "time" (mine and a lot of volunteers').

I ended up cancelling most of the Cody Bowl season (as I had to do last season as well), and I think from now on I'm going to go with more of an "I'll run a contest when I feel like it, until then leave me alone" model. Like you said, it's a lot safer to give people something for free occasionally than it is to promise something and ask people to make a (minimal) commitment to it.

I'm optimistic that we can work together to create something completely new and unexpected that will achieve both of the ends you seek: to change the way students do math, and to provide for the future of the AOPS enterprise.

by mathjoker, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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rrusczyk wrote:
Thanks to those who want to help - one great way to do that is simply spread the word. Bringing more people to the site will likely help even more than money.

The hard part, is not convincing people that AoPS is a great reasource and such,

the hard part is convincing people that they are capable of doing it.

Several people I have mentioned this site too have seemed very interested, but then seem kind of scared to jump in and start learning and making mistakes. I have to remind them thats how its done, your not learning much if your not working hard.

by rzsolt, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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The Something Awful forums charge 10 dollars for registration (and 10 dollars for search, 10 for archives, etc) and have over 70,000 registered members.

Of course, that's about all you would want to borrow from SA ;)

by blahblahblah, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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One of the problems I have that stop me from enrolling in as many classes as I like is not money but time. I don't really have any free time or flexibility in my schedule, especially my weekday schedule. Would it be possible or practical to hold a poll about times that would work for prospective students?

by Phelpedo, Jun 17, 2006, 3:22 PM

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