East Coast Trip

by rrusczyk, Nov 11, 2006, 3:12 PM

DPatrick and I went back east a couple weeks ago to check out the grading team we have at MIT/Harvard. It was cool to meet so many students that I know through AoPS or through the USAMTS, though it was interesting how many of them I had already met.

I decided to stay an extra day to go to jfrost's middle school and speak to his students and parents (which also gave me the opportunity to grab lunch w/joml, who couldn't make the grading session). One of my goals there was to try to get the parents to understand how much they have to support Josh in order to free his time to coach. I don't know if that worked, but Josh tells me I at least scared up a fair amount of interest in AoPS books

I'm sure Josh helped with that. Josh also invited the coach of his cross-town rival team and their students. How cool is that? I think these two are probably the top 2 teams in MA, or at least 2 of the top 3.

One of the things I like to talk about when I go to a parents' group at an already high-performing school is the importance of the parents not pushing too much. In general, we see this phenomenon a fair amount from the very top middle schoolers: they get there because their parents force them to work, but then they quit when they attain some measure of independence in high school.

Then a parent asked something like: "Isn't it true that for those kids who quit, they're still better off than if the parent hadn't pushed them at all?" I think not - when students quit math/science in high school, they close all sorts of doors. Had they been allowed to find interest in math on their own, rather than having it shoved down their throats, they might still be doing it. And they clearly have the aptitude to be pretty good, so while they might not have started as early as their parents would like, they'll still rise to the top when it really matters, which is years after college ends.

But maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm not a parent, and maybe I overestimate how much smart students intuitively know what's best for them. However, I think a lot of success is loving what you're doing, and if someone doesn't love what they're doing, those who do love it will eventually be surpassed by those who do.

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Then a parent asked something like: "Isn't it true that for those kids who quit, they're still better off than if the parent hadn't pushed them at all?" I think not - when students quit math/science in high school, they close all sorts of doors. Had they been allowed to find interest in math on their own, rather than having it shoved down their throats, they might still be doing it. And they clearly have the aptitude to be pretty good, so while they might not have started as early as their parents would like, they'll still rise to the top when it really matters, which is years after college ends.

I'm not so sure that students would be better off to find their interests alone. I'm not a parent either (one hopes

), but being in the Chinese community (

), I think some throat-shoving by parents is beneficial. I don't think I knew about my interest in math until I was introduced into things like the SDMC (which was a throat-shoving thing in the beginning) and, honestly, with US society like it is, I don't think I would have known about this interest for a long time had I been left alone. Sure, there's no benefit for getting forced for an extended period to do something one doesn't like, but a little push here and there isn't bad to stir up one's fixed routine of life.

by Bestone, Nov 11, 2006, 5:56 PM

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Indeed, a little push in the right direction is probably necessary. But how much? For example, would it be good to force a student to the SDMC for 2 years against their will? To force them to do MATHCOUNTS problems every night for 90 minutes against their will? Where's the line? (I don't mean this rhetorically - I'm serious. I think it's good for parents to force their children to try things that will be good for them if the child likes them; but where do they stop?)

by rrusczyk, Nov 11, 2006, 11:22 PM

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I think a parent should push their child to try new things, and not to not do something just because other people dont do it. I tried a variety of things in elementary school that I wouldnt have unless my mom put me in those classes. I still try new things, now of my own accord.

by star99, Nov 12, 2006, 1:55 AM

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A parent here... no real pushing on our part (I assume my son would concurr.) Worked out for the best. He did (and does) real, real well. I noticed a pattern. Books and other math materials that he asked for got used; unsolicited math books and games (e.g., gifts) rarely got looked at.

Bottom line: The motivation came from within. We would never have asked him to work as hard as he did (by himself) in any case.

by Hip, Nov 13, 2006, 4:22 AM

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Richard,
I have enjoyed following this thread and the comments everyone has made about parents pushing their children. I would like to add some of my own observations:
1. In my opinion, I think the general trend in the US today is for parents not to get involved with their kid's education. By this I mean there is so much hype about overbearing parents that more and more parents are using a laissez Faire attitude towards their kids education. I have talked with lots of parents and many don't even know what their kids are taking in school and fewer still evaluate whether or not their children are learning to think.
2. For the most part, children just are not wise enough to understand what resources are at their disposal to enhance the educational experience. Parental intervention here can really be an asset.
3. I think as others have alluded to in this thread, the bottom line is that one needs to have a good parent child relationship. I feel each child is unique, thus the motivation for each is unique. My son requires some nudging to do work, but once he starts he really likes doing math competitions. He would have never starting programming at a young age if I had not encouraged it. I have talked to other engineers and they started programming on their own at a young age. Their parent gave the free reign to be with other kids to program and learn about computers. Obviously, this worked for them. My son is not a real self-starter, other children are more independent and want to be able to choose what they want to do at an early age. You just have to know your child well enough to both challenge them and yet not frustrate them. I find that this process of finding balance is ongoing and mistakes are always made along the way. If we can get to the point where our kids love to learn then we have accomplished a major life goal for them.

by Eric Ricketts, Nov 24, 2006, 4:27 PM