MATHCOUNTS at the White House

by rrusczyk, Jul 25, 2009, 5:08 PM

Here's an interesting discussion between people who were there.

I guess there's an interesting question -- what really is the job of the President? (The discussion centers on how little time Obama spent with the visitors, as opposed to Bush, who spent a fair amount of time with them.) I think the answer is clear -- in the first term of office, the job of the President is to get a second term. It is at least clear that Obama is working hard towards this end. (Bush didn't have to work as hard --- bin Laden did all that work for him, and Bush still nearly blew it.) I don't really have a position on whether the President should take visits from MATHCOUNTS students more or less seriously. Frankly, I'm of the mind that the President shouldn't be spending so much time doing any of these sorts of PR things (throwing a pitch at the All-Star game, going on Letterman, etc). But that's naive, because these PR things are one key to his main job in the first term -- winning a second term.

I don't think Bush did nearly as much of this grand high-visibility PR as Obama does, perhaps in part because Bush wasn't as good at it. But I've heard from a few sources that he spent what would seem to be an inappropriately large amount of time in these little settings with visitors. Maybe what it really comes down to is Bush likes little groups of people and Obama likes crowds, and there's nothing more to it than that. Were I President, I'd hate them both, merely enduring them until I could get down to work. I'd be a terrible President, of course, since in some sense, this sort of PR is the work of being President.

On a side note, I'm amused that the astronauts showed more interest in the kids than the White House folks. I think if I were there, I would have shown more interest in the astronauts than in the White House folks

MATHCOUNTS

politics

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Were I to argue with myself on this one, I'd take JBoyd's line -- the President's main job is to be a symbol. And in that capacity, he should be holding up the MATHCOUNTS students as a beacon. There's something to that argument, I think. It doesn't hold much with me, because I don't hold the President as a symbol (not just this one, but any President). But a great many people do, whether I like it or not.

Of course a lot of people hold Michael Jackson to be a symbol, too. And Sarah Palin, to pick the two people who have so dominated CNN for the last few weeks.

by rrusczyk, Jul 25, 2009, 5:16 PM

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From many of the kids' point of view, it is not about PR, it is about the acknowledgement of their accomplishment in Math. It means a great deal to many math kids since they do not usually get any encouragement from their schools. To be invited into the White House is a great honor to anybody, yes, it may be a symbol, but it matters to many math kids. So yes, I agree with Coach Boyd's argument.

This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by shtsxc12, Jul 26, 2009, 5:01 PM

by shtsxc12, Jul 25, 2009, 6:02 PM

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The President isn't a symbol, and his primary goal is not to win a second term. What you see that looks like campaigning for a second term is campaigning, but not directly for an election. A large part of the President's job is setting the agenda of his administration and explaining (selling) that agenda to the people. I volunteered on Obama's campaign last fall, and I'm still on all the mailing lists. Right now, he's campaigning for policies and not reelection, though that will change in two years or so. The most productive time a president has is at the beginning of his first term, when his approval ratings are highest. Obama in particular got a big honeymoon boost, but as the reality of the economy starts to set in and as he continues to be unable to wave a magic wand and fix it, his ratings will go down. Everyone in Washington knows how popular the President is; if he's popular, they have far more motivation to support his policies as they are connected to the voters every 2/6 years as well. Senators and Representatives do represent the people, and if they get a lot of communication from their constituents on an issue, they will certainly consider their constituents' positions.

by worthawholebean, Jul 25, 2009, 6:45 PM

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Quote:

...I'd be a terrible President, of course...

Mr. Rusczyk would make an excellent president.

by dragon96, Jul 25, 2009, 6:47 PM

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Sure he's campaigning for re-election; that's why so many of his events are in battleground states. I don't say this as a bad thing -- it's very important to his policy goals that he be re-elected. At the very least, it increases his influence on the judiciary, which is important. I might argue that putting Alito and Roberts on the court were the most important acts Bush made domestically during his 8 years, though that observation somewhat stems from the fact that he didn't really do much on the domestic front. Clinton did much more, though some of it was lamentably undone by Bush, and others lamentably undone by Obama...

by rrusczyk, Jul 25, 2009, 7:11 PM

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My question is why would the MATHCOUNTS kids waste their time visiting a politician of all people. This reminds me of a famous story about Goethe and Beethoven

Quote:

Bettina Brettano tells the story of that encounter as such: " As they were walking together, Beethoven and Goethe crossed paths with the empress, the dukes and their cortege. So Beethoven said to Goethe: Keep walking as you did until now, holding my arm, they must make way for us, not the other way around. Goethe thought differently; he drew his hand, took off his hat and stepped aside, while Beethoven, hands in pockets, went right through the dukes and their cortege, barely miming a saluting gesture. They drew aside to make way for him, saluting him friendlily. Waiting for Goethe who had let the dukes pass, Beethoven told him: " I have waited for you because I respect you and I admire your work, but you have shown too great an esteem to those people. "

In one version that I recall, Beethoven said something along the lines of "Why would you bow? There are many such as them, but only two of us."

by djcordeiro, Jul 25, 2009, 9:28 PM

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Haha. In 2006, I was invited to the White House because one of my MathCounts students (Andrew Ardito) finished 2nd. Though we were already in Washington, I turned down the invitation. (President Bush was not my favorite person, and I didn't want to be in a photo op with him.)

by Ravi B, Jul 26, 2009, 1:32 AM

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dj - that reminds me of the story about Diogenes, upon being told that Alexander the Great wished to meet him, allegedly responded, "Go tell your emperor that Corinth is as far from Macedonia as Macedonia is from Corinth." Classic. (And when they finally met and Alexander asked him if he wanted anything, Diogenes supposedly asked him to stand out of his light, upon which Alexander supposedly said that if he weren't Alexander, he should wish to be Diogenes. Points to both of them for that one.)

Ravi---c'mon, even Paul Krugman went to visit Bush! (OK, Bush helped him finally win his Nobel Prize, but still....)

by rrusczyk, Jul 26, 2009, 1:42 AM

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I think the office of the President deserves inherent respect - the person who holds it has a lot of weight on his shoulders and is trying to do what he finds best for the country. I never liked Bush much, but given the opportunity I'd definitely shake his hand and thank him for his service to the country.

Edit: Yeah, he's spending more time in battleground states - combining short-term legislative goals with longer-term reelection - but I still maintain that his primary focus is the task at hand.

Edit 2: Alito and Roberts are important, yes, and two of the most important things he did. The tax cut package and NCLB were also very important.

by worthawholebean, Jul 26, 2009, 2:30 AM

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Sorry, I'd rather not shake hands with someone who has killed hundreds of thousands of people.

by Ravi B, Jul 26, 2009, 3:12 AM

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The world would be a better place with another Diogenes than a thousand more school yard bullies and their toadies.

Here is a 20th Century Diogenes on this topic:

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Epaulettes and the pope 1:14
Feynman explains how his father - a uniform salesman - taught him lessons in respect.
Video transcript

One of the things that my father taught me besides physics - whether it's correct or not - was a disrespect for respectable... for certain kinds of things. For example, when I was a little boy, and a rotogravure - that's printed pictures in newspapers - first came out in the New York Times, he used to sit me again on his knee and he'd open a picture, and there was a picture of the Pope and everybody bowing in front of him.

And he'd say, "Now look at these humans. Here is one human standing here, and all these others are bowing. Now what is the difference? This one is the Pope" - he hated teh Pope anyway - and he'd say, "the difference is epaulettes" - of course not in the case of the Pope, but if he was a general - it was always the uniform, the position, "but this man has the same human problems, he eats dinner like anybody else, he goes to the bathroom, he has the same kind of problems as everybody, he's a human being.

Why are they all bowing to him? Only because of his name and his position, because of his uniform, not because of something special he did, or his honour, or something like that." He, by the way, was in the uniform business, so he knew what the difference was between the man with the uniform off and the uniform on: it's the same man for him.

by djcordeiro, Jul 26, 2009, 2:04 PM

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Question for Ravi: when does responsibility for those still dying in Iraq and Afghanistan shift from Bush to Obama? It must at some point. Vietnam eventually became Nixon's responsibility (and Cambodia certainly was). It can't be solely on Bush forever, right? (I'm not saying it's on Obama now, but I must say, I wonder where all the war protesters have gone...)

by rrusczyk, Jul 26, 2009, 3:44 PM

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In my opinion, the responsibility for current deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan has already shifted to Obama. He already has the option of listening to the people of those countries by withdrawing.

Obama is tricky. During the campaign, he tried to portray himself as anti-war, but looking closely at his words and policies, he is nothing of the sort. He says we are pulling out of Iraq, but we are leaving tens of thousands of "non-combat" troops there. And he has escalated the aggression in Afghanistan.

That said, I blame Bush more, because he instigated the wars. Now there are no pleasant options for either of the two countries.

by Ravi B, Jul 26, 2009, 4:10 PM

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You may or may not like a president but I still think that you have to respect the office. Being the president is a no win situation. No matter what you do or don't do 50% of the people disagree with you.

by JBoyd, Jul 28, 2009, 2:16 AM