Amazing Stat of the Day

by rrusczyk, May 26, 2009, 11:45 PM

An AoPS parent just pointed out to me that West Virginia beat New York in MATHCOUNTS (and noted that all 4 West Virginia students come from the same small town in West Virginia).

I am particularly gleeful over this because our foundation is having a whole lot of difficulty getting a program started in NYC at the middle school level (more on that when I have time). (No offense intended to the AoPSers on the NY team!!)

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13 Comments

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What place did NY get?

by themorninglighttt, May 27, 2009, 12:24 AM

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I was pretty annoyed at a person on New York...

by xpmath, May 27, 2009, 12:37 AM

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I go to the school that two of the four NY team members came from. We do use your books, or at the very least have them available (Intro to C&P sort of saved me in seventh grade from being bored by math). We're trying to start a problem solving class in addition to math team (based on Zeitz), although it's kind of difficult as the administration thinks that math problems, on any level, are just "a bunch of tricks." There are already a few programs in NY, but anything from AoPS would be amazing.

As to why NY didn't do so well... perhaps we are just not intense enough. We did have one person in 25th place, however. He's quite good.

by emannes, May 27, 2009, 12:46 AM

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If I'm guessing right about your school, it's one of the few strong programs in NY, and does at least have some teachers (and students) who get it.

by rrusczyk, May 27, 2009, 1:37 AM

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I'm sure there's a motivational advantage to having 4 teammates in one place with the same enthusiastic and dedicated coach. That can happen even in a small state that's not generally academically competetive. And if it happens a few years in a row, then there's a pool of high school students with that recent experience to help with MC practices and generate enthusiasm as well.

Administrative support for MathCounts at the school 3 of the 4 WV teammates attend, and where their homeschooled teammate also practiced for nationals, has been lukewarm; let's just say the principal appreciates the trophies from chapter and state MC but doesn't quite understand what it really takes to earn them. He eliminated an elective course in math problem-solving last year, so now kids who want extra math practice come in an hour before school starts, on their and the coach's own time, instead of taking a class.

If generating enthusiasm is part of a team's success, AoPS materials have a lot to do with the rest. Part of the not-so-secret secret of the success of kids, wherever they may be, who work with AoPS materials and take the online classes can be seen by analogy to figure skaters:
Quote:
A study of figure skaters found that sub-elite skaters spend lots of time working on the jumps they could already do, while skaters at the highest levels spend more time on the jumps they couldn't do, the kind that ultimately win Olympic medals and that involve lots of falling down before they're mastered.
Geoff Colvin in Talent is Overrated

Standard advice for AoPS books and courses: "You shouldn't expect to be able to work all the problems; if you can, this book/course is probably too easy for you."

Standard really positive feedback on an AoPS problem set: "Good, you've attempted many problems. Now work on the ones you didn't attempt, and if you can't solve them, study the solutions and try again later."

Contrast the standard feedback from school administrators, and perhaps too often from teachers, for students who consistently score 95-100 % on math tests: "You're really smart, you'll do fine. You're one of the students we don't need to worry about."

Blue Morpho

by Blue Morpho, May 27, 2009, 1:39 PM

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That advantage of having the students together with a good coach is very strongly exemplified by the teams at the top of the heap. Number one, Texas. Jeff Boyd does an amazing amount of work with the kids, and there is a very small number of coaches with his dedication. Number two, Missouri. All four kids at the same school, and they came in #2 in the country. Not bad at all.

by rrusczyk, May 27, 2009, 3:49 PM

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The NM team was composed of 3 Albuquerque Academy kids and 1 kid that lived in Los Alamos. Obviously, there was a problem with the practices, because Los Alamos is a 2 hour drive from Albuquerque. If I am right, the Academy kids had a few practices without me, the Los Alamos kid, but together, we only had 2 practices. So, our team had many faults. First, the practices part. Second, my teacher wasn't enthusiastic. And third, we didn't know each other. We did get to know each other at the practices, and on AoPS, which I am thankful for, but we still didn't know each other. Though, I cannot testify to not knowing someone after sharing a room with someone, that is for sure. I finally got to know them both socially and mathematically in Orlando. So, you may say, "Oh, so they know each other, and they know their strengths and weaknesses, great." But, it was better than that. On the day of the test, we all did terribly. Extremely badly. We all made WAY too many stupid mistakes (I know, I know, read your article). When we got to the team round, this didn't change. But, we know ourselves so well that we were able to fix our terrible performance by recognizing our own follies. We got a 9 (still fail, considering the easiness, but not fail, considering our terrible bad luck on test day :lol: ) Our team placing was 21st, and our highest before was like 39th.

Anyway, This story is just to say that you must know your teammates to do well. Sorry if this was a little boring, I needed to tell this story to someone. I'm not sure how well it relates to the discussion, though...

by connaissance, May 27, 2009, 8:33 PM

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I'll paraphrase your comment: "New Mexico beat New York too!!!"

(My wife is from New Mexico, so we have to celebrate New Mexico's wins.)

by rrusczyk, May 27, 2009, 9:29 PM

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Knowing each other before going to Nationals is so important. Texas never started winning until 2005 when I happened to have all 4 of the kids from my program. The next year State Mathcounts flew two of the kids into my school for 4 consecutive weekends. The parents of these two kids also took it upon themselves to drive the kids to Sugar Land every Tuesday evening for a 2 1/2 hour practice. When the kids were flown in for the weekend they all stayed with my kids. For two days each week they did everything together. They really got to know each other by spending so much time together. We ended up having almost 25 practices before Nationals. They got to really know the strengths and weaknesses of each other and they trusted each other. It has been the same for 2007, 2008 and 2009.

It used to be that the coach traveled all over Texas to meet with the kids for just one day of practice, normally at the airport. I hope that they continue the practice of flying the kids into the school of the winning coach. It make a tremendous difference!

Another advantage was that I had all my materials and equipment at my school and I did not have to haul it all over the state.

It all boils down to who is going to put in the most QUALITY time. That has alway been my philosophy. If some team is going to practice 2 hours a week, we are going to practice 10 hours or more. If you put in more quality time than every one else you should be somewhat better than the competition.
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by JBoyd, Jun 3, 2009, 7:27 PM

by JBoyd, May 30, 2009, 4:06 AM

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It's great that Texas supports their MATHCOUNTS team so generously and enables such extensive practices for the four students who represent Texas at National MATHCOUNTS. Having lived in Houston Texas decades ago (before MATHCOUNTS even existed!), I know there's a lot of state pride, and that clearly pays off at the middle school level.

However, it is interesting to note that Texas doesn't seem to support its high school math teams as well as it could to build on that strength from the middle school level.

NYC has one-third the population of Texas (8 million vs. 24 million), yet NYC generally comes ahead of Texas at ARML. Over the past decade, Texas has consistently beaten NY in the team standings at National MATHCOUNTS, but that strength in middle school competitions doesn't seem to carry over to ARML. (In the past decade, Texas has also lagged behind NY in the number of USAMO qualifiers as well as USAMO winners and honorable mentions.)

The New York City ARML team has a huge practice advantage over the Texas ARML team at the high school level, because geographic proximity makes it easier for the team members to practice together regularly before ARML. What I've heard from Texas ARML participants is that their only team practice takes place on the bus to ARML, which is hardly ideal (especially for those who are prone to motion sickness!)

Texas might actually do better at ARML if it split up its ARML teams geographically to enable frequent and regular practices by several regional teams. Today's ARML triumph by the Lehigh Fire team shows that a team doesn't have to draw from a huge populaton pool to win ARML.

by sophia, May 31, 2009, 1:41 AM

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The support for the Texas Mathcounts team does not come from the school districts. It is coming from the Texas Society of Professional Engineers. It is their people who are devoting time and energy to make sure that we do the best we can at nationals. There is some monetary support (grudgingly though) from the state. The money is there but the state (TEA) is trying to get control of it. They do not like the fact that TSPE has control of the money.

About high school programs, I have complained for years about the same things that you mentioned. There does not seem to be any effort to have any kind of continuity from middle school to high school. For the last 10 years, I have sent some of the strongest math kids out to local high schools only to see them not do as much in high school math contests as they should. With the calibre of kids that I have sent them they should be winning everything in sight.

Part of the problem is that middle school kids are a captive audience. They don't drive and most have not discovered the opposite sex. In high school their time is so divided that you just do not see the level of dedication that you have in middle school.

The other major reason is that these programs seem to be coach driven. A lot of high schools to not have a sponsor who is highly motivated and enthusiastic and who runs organized practices and makes sure that the best kids get to contests and helps in setting up the contest schedule and does fund raising. Most everything is done by 2-4 students who do not have any real support from the administration.

If the truth be known, when I leave or retire, my program (which I think is one of the best) will be dead in two years. There might be a little carry over the first year but the second year it would be like taking your finger out of a bucket of water. Once the ripples die you could never tell that there was ever a finger in the bucket. I am really concerned about that happening to my program in 5 years.

But if you look at the other side of the coin, it is hard for someone to devote the time and effort that is needed. They have familes. They have work and other job responsibilities. They have kids of their own. Their kids have obligations that drain time away and the biggie is that schools will not pay good money to have a full time sponsor. I n the ten years that I have been at my present position, my kids have won over 400 math championships and I am still getting the same stipend that I got on the first year. My position is unique in that my full time job revolves around preparing kids for math contests. I do not have any other job responsibilities. I do not have to worry about standardized tests. Plus my wife is my assistant coach. If my wife was not on board I could never do what I need to do to be successful.

I don't think that most school systems get it!
This post has been edited 1 time. Last edited by JBoyd, Jun 4, 2009, 1:12 PM

by JBoyd, May 31, 2009, 2:16 AM

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I agree with JBoyd that coaches have a lot of competing demands on their time and energy, which can make it extremely challenging to support ARML teams.

All the more kudos to Lehigh Fire for their tremendous win this year and for the excellent (and generous!!!) website their coaches Ken and Maria Monks have made available to all interested students and coaches:
http://www.lehigh.edu/~dmd1/arml.html

I would also like send a shout-out to George Reuter, Sandy Ohlerich, Patty Pragel, and the many dedicated long-time coaches of the Upstate NY ARML team (which finished in 15th place in the A division this year--one point ahead of Texas! And they also won the Penn State super-relay!)

The wonderful thing about math competitions is the generosity of spirit of so many coaches AND competitors, who generously share their knowledge with the entire world.

The friendly rivalry and camaraderie at math competitions like ARML is truly astonishing.

by sophia, May 31, 2009, 7:08 PM

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One of the problems that Texas has to deal with is the scheduling conflict of ARML and Texas final exams. In the past school has always ended prior to ARML but in recent years they have coincided with each other. This year it kept 6-8 really top kids from competing among them Bobby S. and Kevin C.

I expect to see the same thing happening in the future. If it comes down to a math competition or finals, finals will win out in importance with several of the top students who will not want to have to amke up finals after ARML.

I would like to see Texas have a year-long training program for ARML but it is going to take several experienced people to step up and get the ball rolling.

by JBoyd, Jun 6, 2009, 7:04 PM

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