personally i think the latter is definitely not even close to being as impressive

you have to study way harder for the spelling bee... (you don't really study too much for usamo, besides practicing)

knowing you're the best at spelling for your grade and the two above you in the whole united states is way better than being one of 500ish to qualify for the usamo

no offense mr. rusczyk, but i'm gonna rant against both. particularly, i will rant against the mathematical one since you use english everyday, but when you're an adult (even in mathematical careers now - except for like professors), when will you ever need quite a bit of the math you do in usamo.

i hope no one feels offended (i am ranting against what i do, so...),
jorian

It sounds like Evan agrees with Richard. As he said after the bee, math and music are much more meaningful to him than spelling.

I also share Richard and Evan's hierarchy--the problem solving skills one develops in high level math competitions are certainly more valuable than being able to spell obscure words according to a sometimes arbitrary set of conventions.

That said, I would not entirely dismiss out of hand the possibility that spellers can acquire some very useful skills in the process of preparing for bees (not the least of those skills is not taking themselves too seriously!)

As for the importance of spelling bee skills as an essential part of daily life, Shakespeare couldn't even spell his name consistently, yet he is widely acknowledged for his brilliant use of English. It's hard to argue with a straight face that that knowing how to spell a large number of incredibly obscure words such as "schuhplattler" (a Polish folk dance) is truly likely to come in useful on a regular basis in later life.

However, I would still argue that kids do get something out of spelling bees, beyond learning the spellings of ridiculously obscure words. They develop a different kind of problem solving skills from those one gets from math contests--they learn how to assimilate vast quantities of information, to find patterns and regularities. There seem to be lots of biologists, doctors, and lawyers among former spelling champions. A number of them have remarked that they developed confidence and efficiency in memorizing large volumes of imperfectly organized and somewhat chaotic but essential information due to their study of spelling.

The English language is full of patterns as well as irregularities; there is actually a fair amount of problem solving that goes on in trying to figure out ways to organize all that information and reduce its dimensionality.

Virtually all successful spellers learn vast numbers of Greek, Latin, French, and German roots (including meaning as well as spelling) and their strategy for spelling many difficult and unfamiliar words depends critically on associating those roots with their meanings. Retired spellers have found that the forest of technichal terms they later encountered in biology and chemistry was much more manageable thanks to all they had learned about roots in their earlier study of spelling.

Spelling is fun--so is juggling (another skill Evan seems to enjoy--he apparently found it fun to juggle while practicing spelling, according to an article in his local paper.) And he clearly seems to have kept it from taking it over his life, since he also managed to study math and physics at a very high level, get a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, study piano and composition at the San Francisco Conservatory, pass the California high school proficiency exam while still an eighth grader, learn Latin, etc.

Evan collected roughly 40K worth of prizes (mostly cash) for his bee win and thanks to his making the top 15 spellers, millions of ABC prime-time viewers got to see Zvezda and also got to hear his conservatory group playing his original composition.

And next week, his USAMO Honorable Mention will get him a trip to MOP.

I'm reminded of the MasterCard commercials--"Winning the bee, 40K; invitation to MOP, priceless!"

In ten years of watching spelling bees and math competitions, I'm truly struck by the frequency overlap between strong performers in both areas. I think there is a key element of pattern recognition and efficient problem-solving (as well as ability to remain calm and collected under pressure) common to both.

(One of the other spellers in the top 15 finalist group was Jonathan Horton, a three time MATHCOUNTS National Finalist who placed 36th this year. Bee favorite Samir Patel, a five time national spelling finalist who came in 3rd in 2003 at age 9 and 2nd in 2005 at age 11, has always said that math is his favorite subject, and now plans to direct his spelling energies into math competitions. Emma Manning, a speller who tied for 60th out of 285 national spellers today, is the younger sister of Jeffrey Manning, a two-time Honorable Mention on USAMO.)

Yes, there's silly low-level stuff that both spellers and math contestants do--whether it's practicing buzzer skills or playing the "Arithmetic game" on the MathCounts and AMC forums or whether it's memorizing spellings of obscure eponyms, but there are more significant higher level skills developed in the course of preparing for those competitions as well.

Having said all that, I do think it's just as well that in every state I know of--except for Texas, competitive spelling ends after 8th grade. (In Texas, there is UIL Varsity Spelling all the way through 12th grade!)

Source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2889479

It's really sad that the most effective prime-time publicity math can get is when a math star wins the spelling bee.

Sounds like Evan is pretty sensible about prioritizing his interests. He'll have to be since he's good at so many things!

As for the spelling bee, you've at least moved it ahead of tiddlywinks in my book. But it's hard for me to shake the feeling that these kids could find much better ways to spend their time. Debate, for example, would be a far better use of their time, and still feed linguistic skills, etc. And math is way more effective at teaching problem solving (as is debate, computer science, any branch of science, writing . . .)

I just feel like with the advent of the internet, the skills that the spelling bee trains for (aside from the base skills of hard work/dedication/performance under pressure, which are important but can just as easily be attained in a quilting bee) are simply not that widely important anymore. A few professions might require these skills, but even those will be run down by computers soon. Organizing and memorizing information is something that computers do far better than humans. The computers are already taking over biology. We'll also see more and more doctors and lawyers leaning on computers for these sorts of informational tasks in the future - and doing a better job because of it. Instead, the people at the top of these professions will need problem solving skills to be at the top of their game. Mere memorization won't do.

I just love the MasterCard line.

In light of technology making these sorts of memorization skills far less important, it just occurred to me how ironic it is that the spelling bees are sponsored by newspapers.

The MAA did not waste any time capitalizing on Evan's remarks:

http://www.maa.org/news/060107spellingbee.html

Interesting that you mention debate: a fair number of spellers do get eventually get involved in debate during their high school years and do very well. Spelling bees could well be a foundational activity for some of them.

I don't know that much about debate, but I don't of any significant middle school level debate opportunities.

Based on what I've heard about the care with which high school debaters shop for their "debate suits," I gather that physical attributes are an important aspect of debating effectiveness. (Debate judging is highly subjective, and often done by volunteer parents with minimal training and little professionalism, especially at the early stages.) I suspect the physical awkwardness and squeaky high-pitched voices of preadolescents might be a significant handicap in entry level debating for many middle schoolers.

Spelling bees have something to offer middle school students who may be future debaters: experience and confidence-building in high pressure public speaking including thinking on one's feet in a time-pressured situation.

Moreover, in my opinion, what the spellers in my family found to be the best and most valuable part of their preparation for spelling bees was voracious, eclectic, and playful reading in a wide variety of knowledge domains--something that they were inclined to do anyway and that would provide useful background and perspective for future high school debaters, if they had chosen that route.

The spellers I have gotten to know have acquired a remarkably wide and encyclopedic (if understandably superficial) cultural literacy and large vocabulary in the course of preparing for spelling bees. They have a cultural framework that serves as a useful backdrop for lots of future endeavors, which includes debate, writing, and law.

It's interesting to note the family background of national spelling bee finalists. Their parents come from a wide range of occupations--I happen to have the Bee Guide from a previous year handy--it lists those occupations. As you might expect, parents include professors, engineers, doctors, lawyers, and business owners. The dads also include: carpenter, fire captain, "fabrication employee," three postal carriers, two postal clerks, two corrections officer, machine operator, locomotive engineer, papermaker, two "laborers", six farmers, power generation employee, metal fabricator, home health care assistant, enlisted members of the armed forces (as well as officers), automotive technician, maintenance employee, potter, wastewater lab technician, HVAC employee, millwork estimator, mold maker, painter, shipping employee, sheet metal worker, four truck drivers, maintenance mechanic, coal company foreman, land surveyor, state trooper, candy company employee, machinist, materials handler, a smoke jumper, etc.

The Bee Week experience, with all these spellers and their families from so many different backgrounds and from all over the country mixing together--in square dances, sack races, barbecues, touring DC landmarks, and board games is quite remarkable.

There is something quintessentially American and heartening about watching an observant Jew in a yarmulke cheering on his daughter in a wheelbarrow race with another speller wearing an Islamic headscarf.

There is a common bonding experience that goes on from the solidarity and support the spellers provide one another which doesn't happen in any other middle school competition I know of.

Indeed, the rules state that if they run out of words on the predetermined word list before they run out of spellers, a tie will be declared.

I can't imagine this happening in MATHCOUNTS--I think there's some intrinsic need to declare a single "MATHCOUNTS National Champion." MATHCOUNTS officials seem prepared to run an indefinite number of "sudden victory" rounds until someone emerges the champion.

There's so much enthusiastic high-fiving and mutual support and peer coaching and encouragement and consolation that goes on at the spelling bee. Perhaps, it's because the words are so ridiculous, spelling conventions are so arbitrary at times, and because there's so much random luck involved--winning the National Spelling Bee is like walking through a field of low-stakes landmines. You just have to hope that you don't get the dreaded "language of origin: unknown" words, etc.

I think perhaps it's partly the fact that they're all in it together against their common enemy, the dictionary, and it's partly due to the week-long Bee Week experience, made possible by the "entertainment/promotional" value associated with the bee.

To your 2nd to last paragraph: You have to be pretty darn good to get to the finals...

Hi - I am the mother of Jeff and Emma Manning. I just wanted to add a few comments.

Sophia - I liked very much all you had to say. For the record, Emma tied for 34th place. Jeff was only HM this year. He missed it by one point last year.

Both my kids showed academic talents and interests early on. With Jeff it math, math and math. Through different avenues (mostly Tedrick's parents, Betty and Orlando), we found several math competitions and this group. I am overjoyed by all the support we found in the math community. I could tell myself that all the math competitions Jeff participates in are of little value. Real math is not like that. OTOH, he has gained much insight into math, won some money, some books, and an entire wardrobe of math Tshirts. Jeff has made friends with like minded souls.

Emma, the little sister, never showed much interest in math, but she did show an early love of words. I do not see her interests as any less useful than Jeff's interest. She thinks she might want to be a writer when she grows up. Spelling Bees seemed a natural for her, and from the time I signed her up for a 3rd grade Bee at the county fair she was hooked, though only marginally dedicated in studying. From these competitions she has gained much insight into language. She has won prizes, money, books and a small array of Tshirts. This week at the bee she has made some great friends. It has been a wonderful experience.

I think that anything academic that interests a child should be encouraged. Yes, some kids here have spent many long hours memorizing words and maybe that is not the best use of time, but I can also think of many worse choices for teenagers to make.

Regarding Evan saying he didn't like the spelling bee, I didn't really feel that was the case. He was clearly enjoying himself. I also got to meet his parents, and they didn't seem the type to force him into this.

One final off topic comment - Samir Patel was a great kid and a very good sport. He is burdened with a mother with issues.

And memorizing digits of pi, rt2, rt3, etc. isn't wasting your time???

Or memorizing silly formulas...

jorian

nice comment about patel

Um, memorizing pi is just 3 numbers 3.14, same with rt2, rt3 and e( which are pretty much the only numbers that need to be memorized) so compared to knowing how to spell thousands of words with lots of letters its no memorization. Oh and the formulas aren't silly, because being able to derive some formulas is the key, not the memorization.

Plus Evan O'Dorney didn't just qualify for the USAMO, he got an Honorable Mention which means he was the top 24 in a competition of high schoolers as an 8th grader.

Since I am also of Indian descent I understand the Patel comment. Parents shouldn't pressure their children too much to win something although I can see why they would be dissappointed as he has placed very well many years in a row.

As for real math not being like math contests - to a large extent that's true. And that's a good thing. A well designed math contest is not training future mathematicians. It's training future problem solvers. This is a much more widely applicable skill.

As for the community of spellers, I think AoPS shows that the math contest community is much the same. Much of the top 12 at Nationals will choose summer camps to be together. The very small handful of friends I still have contact with from high school are all, every single one, competitors from math contests who went to different schools. Sure, we were competitive with each other, but we were also very good friends. Aside from my wife, I don't even keep in touch with anyone from college. But I still have several math contest friends from high school I see regularly.

I think the problem with all this is that Spelling, unfortunately, is much better entertainment for the Average American, than math. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why, spelling is a lot more interactive on television than say, the Mathcounts Countdown Round is.

Unfortunately, this makes spelling a lot more publicized toward young children. Obviously, what's shown on TV affects people in many different ways, advertising as an example. Young children are going to watch, and find it very intriguing (and you can't really blame them), and want to do it when they are older.

But it's great that many of these kids are realizing the lack of skills that the spelling bee provides for life, such as Jonathan Horton, Samir Patel, and Evan O'Dorney.

I agree with that entirely. Just after this year's MathCounts Competition, I met many people that I will surely be in touch with for life. Many of them, I consider better friends than a lot of my friends at school. Even if we only see each other a few times a year (at ARML, or MOP, or what not), I think with that alone I've forged friendships that will last very long. And with four more years at ARML, where more and more people my age will be going, I can forge even more.

Eh, I'm going to say that NSB is more impressive, because you need to know just about every word. But that might just be because I'm better at vocab than math.

lol spelling is way more impressive

you use english way more than math..

I don't have a strong opinion about the spelling bee one way or another but if a kid has bee fever, I'd highly recommend the National Geographic Bee. It's a relative latecomer in the Bee world (1989) but does get some publicity because Alex Trebek of Jeopardy! moderates the finals. My son (whose AoPS username is attached to my e-mail address) was the youngest finalist this year, too young for MATHCOUNTS until next season. I'd say this: the farther a kid goes with the Geo Bee the more relevant the information becomes. Kids learn the US capitals and major cities, rivers, national parks, continents, major world cities, etc to advance beyond the local level and get through the state bee.

To do well in the finals they need to know not only where countries are in the world but something about their climates, geology, governments, economies, languages, ethnic and religious composition, architectural landmarks, etc. My 10-year-old can pick up the Economist and make sense of the articles. He knows who Hugo Chavez is and where Kosovo is and what the major ethnic group is there and why Albanians love the U.S. He knows what's going on in Darfur. He knows which countries are major oil producers, wheat growers. Although he is, for the time being, homeschooled, I did not teach him these things: he learned them studying for the Geo Bee.

And the National Geographic Society works very hard to get the kids at the finals to interact with each other: they are given autograph books, they exchange gifts, they room together and go on huge picnic together. There's going to be a new NGS-sponsored website for national finalists from all years to keep in touch with one another and there's already an unofficial website with forums for bee prep that a lot of kids use to communicate before the bee (I think it's geobeecentral.com).

I appreciate the difference between rote memorization and problem-solving. (And also that the spelling bee requires more than rote memorization.) But it's pretty much impossible to underestimate how important it is for the really bright kids, the problem solvers of the future, to know and appreciate the world they live in. It's getting smaller and smaller (and, Ben would say, warmer).

My guess after a first trip to the state and national GeoBee finals is that despite the NGS's efforts this bee still has a long way to go to get the support it deserves in public schools. Privately schooled and homeschooled kids make up a disporportionate fraction of the group at nationals, I think, because the public schools aren't promoting geography, either in the traditional learn-what's-on-the-map sense or the more modern learn-what's-going-on-in-the-world-and-why-it-matters sense. The kid from our local middle school made a fairly uninspired showing at the state bee--and this is the school that routinely produces 3/4 to 4/4 of the state MATHCOUNTS team. The level of competition could be a lot higher, and that would be a good thing.

By the way, Richard, both Ben and I love AoPS. He wouldn't like me to say but he was almost teary the night his first course (Intro to Counting and Probability) ended. He's starting his second (the MATHCOUNTS problem session) tonight. He hasn't been afraid to jump in, try hard, make mistakes, think about them, learn-- I'm sure parents say this all the time but I wish this had been around when I was in school (ok computers took up whole rooms in large buildings and used punch cards and we typed on non-electric manuals--but you know what I mean).

Grace Ayscue

A couple of things:

A lot of people have been voting Spelling Bee because "we use English more than math." But the English that we use is writing, reading, and speaking, and these have little to do with spelling. You can argue that spelling-bee champs often turn out to be excellent English students, but correlation does not imply causation. I think it's more likely that the people who are attracted to things such as spelling bees are already academically inclined. For example, the best math students at my middle and high school are also among the top students in areas such as English and History, but I doubt you can attribute that to math preparation.

Secondly, I think that the Spelling Bee simply requires less thinking and more preparation. There is some element of recognizing roots and whatnot, but you have to know the words. Even then, it seems somewhat like a crapshoot to me. You only get five or six words and you have to spell all of them correctly. Last year, didn't a boy who came in 2nd in 6th grade get eliminated early because he came up against a word he didn't know? And the bottom line is this: we can teach computers to "memorize" and spell words, far more accurately than humans can, but we can't (yet!) teach them to think creatively and solve problems.

LOL you misspelled "phonetic" in this post

Anyways, I participated in Scripps, does that make me "useless"?